Take What Resonates, Leave What Doesn’t

[00:00:00] I got to a part and I messaged Kaylee and I'm like, what the fuck?

[00:00:05] What are you doing?

[00:00:10] Welcome to the incoherent fangirl.

[00:00:13] Where this week we have yet another doubleheader.

[00:00:16] We are packed the end of the season and it's so much fun.

[00:00:21] Yes, we've gotten some really cool news lately too.

[00:00:24] Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:00:25] Can't wait to share that.

[00:00:27] I'm Mandy of AnnieL.

[00:00:29] And I am Karin of, I didn't write this down, Olympus.

[00:00:34] We'll go with that.

[00:00:35] I was like, I was not prepared for that part.

[00:00:40] Whoops.

[00:00:41] Oopsies.

[00:00:42] Well, hey, you had a quick and easy one.

[00:00:45] I'm still in thrown of glass so I'm AnnieL this week.

[00:00:48] Come with Kayle.

[00:00:49] That's fair.

[00:00:50] All right, not to bring the mood down but in our timeline it is August 29th and

[00:00:59] in Yale's timeline it is September 6th.

[00:01:02] What the hell?

[00:01:04] This is weird.

[00:01:05] When you're hearing this, my husband got his wisdom teeth taken out yesterday and now he

[00:01:09] can't eat.

[00:01:12] Oh, that'll be fun times.

[00:01:15] Look when we were dating I had mine taken out and he kept telling me he was going to

[00:01:18] blend me a cheeseburger because all I wanted was the cheeseburger so Joshua, I'll

[00:01:22] blend you a cheeseburger.

[00:01:26] Hilariously, after I had my daughter there's like in Chinese

[00:01:29] culture, there's a month period where you aren't allowed to eat certain things because

[00:01:35] it's supposed to help with healing.

[00:01:37] I was basically eating the same thing over and over every single day and at one point

[00:01:43] I broke down and I was crying to my mom.

[00:01:46] I was just like, I just want a cheeseburger.

[00:01:49] I bet that's how I was with my daughter.

[00:01:51] I was like, I just want a cheeseburger.

[00:01:56] She was like, okay, okay, it's fine.

[00:01:58] We'll just take out the lettuce because you're not supposed to have cold stuff.

[00:02:03] It's not good for your body, you're supposed to be warm and all of that for healing or

[00:02:08] whatever.

[00:02:08] At that point I was like, listen, I see my mother, she had two kids.

[00:02:14] I'm going to follow everything that she did.

[00:02:16] Yeah, it's so funny that you said cheeseburger because I was just like, I just want a

[00:02:23] cheeseburger.

[00:02:23] She was probably too like, look, I want to respect our traditions but I also know

[00:02:27] what it is to be a new mother.

[00:02:29] Yeah, I'm going to get her a cheeseburger.

[00:02:30] Right.

[00:02:32] So yeah, that's just, I just thought that was funny.

[00:02:36] Like the coincidence.

[00:02:43] That sound means we have an intruder alert.

[00:02:47] It's an intruder.

[00:02:48] Y'all, I'm so excited.

[00:02:49] We have Abigail Owen, author of The Game's Gods Play, among other things.

[00:02:55] But we're going to be talking about this book.

[00:02:56] I've got the liar's crown down.

[00:02:58] I have it.

[00:02:58] I know.

[00:02:59] It's okay.

[00:03:00] We're going to be talking about this one.

[00:03:01] So we're, this is our focus.

[00:03:04] It's going to be great guys.

[00:03:05] Yes.

[00:03:06] So welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:09] The first thing we usually ask our guests is if you can kind of give us an elevator

[00:03:12] pitch of the book for anybody who hasn't heard about it.

[00:03:15] Absolutely.

[00:03:15] So first thank you so much for having me.

[00:03:17] I'm excited to talk to you guys.

[00:03:18] We can't wait.

[00:03:19] Elevator pitch.

[00:03:20] So the whole concept is that long time ago the Greek gods got sick of Zeus

[00:03:25] being king of the gods and kicked him off his throne and it started a war which leveled

[00:03:29] Olympus and devastated the gods.

[00:03:31] And so as a result, they created something called the Crucible.

[00:03:35] So every hundred years, the 12 pantheon gods each pick a mortal to play in their places

[00:03:40] in a series of games that they come up with that can be deadly.

[00:03:44] The winner of the Crucible, the mortal winner, whoever their god or goddess patron

[00:03:48] is becomes the king or queen of the gods for the next hundred years.

[00:03:51] And this has been going on for quite a while.

[00:03:53] But this for the very first time ever, Hades, who has never participated, is done standing

[00:03:59] on the sidelines and has decided to participate for reasons of his own.

[00:04:03] And he chooses our heroine Lyra, who is a cursed office clerk in the order of thieves

[00:04:08] and shenanigans ensue shenanigans indeed.

[00:04:12] And it is absolutely in.

[00:04:14] So oh man.

[00:04:16] OK, so you've written books that cover a wide range of interests.

[00:04:20] Was this your first foray into the Greek gods as far as writing?

[00:04:23] And if so, what is it like writing characters that have thousands of years of history?

[00:04:29] Of history. Yeah.

[00:04:30] So it's definitely my first foray into the Greek gods.

[00:04:33] I've written various different God systems that are unique to my worlds before this.

[00:04:38] And and to be honest, when I first started on the idea for this,

[00:04:41] I was considering doing a whole unique high fantasy world like I had before

[00:04:46] with its own system of gods.

[00:04:47] But I was basing it entirely on the Greek gods.

[00:04:50] And the further I got along in that kind of brainstorming process,

[00:04:53] I was like, no, this needs to be the Greek gods.

[00:04:54] And I've loved them since I was a kid.

[00:04:56] I absorbed those myths and stories just like.

[00:05:00] I mean, there's nothing that quite comes next to mythology, in my opinion,

[00:05:04] in terms of three, you get gods and powers.

[00:05:07] You get worldwide level stakes, essentially.

[00:05:11] You get the romance of things.

[00:05:13] You get the monsters.

[00:05:14] You get, you know, all of the jealousy and kind of very human elements

[00:05:17] that come with gods.

[00:05:19] And so they're just way too fun, way too fun to write.

[00:05:21] But this is my first foray into it.

[00:05:23] So I had a lot of fun with that.

[00:05:24] I think part of the reason why I considered doing the high fantasy

[00:05:27] my own unique world was so that people couldn't argue with me.

[00:05:32] You know what? That's fair. That's fair.

[00:05:35] I think people are very like attached to Greek myths and reattached to the

[00:05:39] myth and people really know the details.

[00:05:42] And, you know, I know the details very well, but I still had to research

[00:05:45] quite a bit just to make sure I was aware of it.

[00:05:48] And I have discovered through that research that actually we still don't

[00:05:51] know for sure a lot of the myths like people will debate some of them.

[00:05:55] My new show of like who told this, who said it first in the,

[00:05:59] you know, various different texts, but also things like we had a debate

[00:06:02] among a couple of my editors about how many pomegranate seeds were involved

[00:06:06] in the original story.

[00:06:07] And actually there's a couple of different versions out there with different numbers.

[00:06:10] And so you might think, you know, but you might actually not know.

[00:06:15] And so, yeah, that that element was a little intimidating.

[00:06:18] But in the end, I was like, you know, I'm doing a very different

[00:06:21] modern retelling where I try to be very like wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

[00:06:26] This isn't your great gods that you know. Right.

[00:06:28] So I try to handle it in that way.

[00:06:32] I also like that you.

[00:06:35] You know what's refreshing?

[00:06:38] I think that's just so, it's so fun.

[00:06:53] And it's like so meta in a sense that it's like, I love it.

[00:06:57] Yeah.

[00:06:58] I do want to ask, and this is completely like not going to be relevant

[00:07:02] for most of the people who are listening.

[00:07:03] But as a Bay Area native, I would like to know

[00:07:06] like why San Francisco?

[00:07:09] Why is that where they're set up?

[00:07:11] It is one of my very favorite cities by far.

[00:07:14] So I lived in Sacramento for about 10 years.

[00:07:17] And so we were out in the Bay Area all the time and San Francisco

[00:07:21] and particularly I love the city itself, but I also love going across

[00:07:24] the bridge to the Marin Headlands and and also like beyond the Salcelito.

[00:07:28] And like, I just love that area so much is just so romantically beautiful.

[00:07:31] And when I started picturing the, you know, the kind of the Greek gods

[00:07:36] set in a modern world, I needed it to be a large city

[00:07:39] because she's part of the order of thieves.

[00:07:40] So, you know, these aren't going to be out in the country.

[00:07:43] And but I also could so picture like Zeus's temple on top of the Marin Headlands,

[00:07:48] which I call them Minos and Lids in the story.

[00:07:50] But yeah, I could just picture his temple on top of that.

[00:07:53] And like the setting just feels so if you've been to San Francisco,

[00:07:56] the way the hills roll and the buildings are set up and the,

[00:08:00] you know, the Pacific right there and the grandiose bridges on all the sides

[00:08:05] and the giant bay like it feels very godlike to me.

[00:08:08] So it's just kind of the perfect setting.

[00:08:11] I love that. Yeah, I've never like thought about it.

[00:08:14] But now that you say it, I'm like, oh, I can see it.

[00:08:17] I could like see it.

[00:08:18] I'm going to have to go back.

[00:08:19] Yeah. I love that city.

[00:08:21] Yeah, San Francisco is fun.

[00:08:23] I am a baby and I'm terrified of bridges.

[00:08:27] Like I'm absolutely terrified of being on bridges.

[00:08:30] White, but it's like, yeah, it's so bad.

[00:08:33] Like if I can avoid bridges, I will.

[00:08:35] But like there's just something so beautiful about the San Francisco bridges,

[00:08:39] like the Golden Gate, the Bay Bridge, like they're so beautiful.

[00:08:42] They're so impressive.

[00:08:43] Just the amount of water that they span and.

[00:08:46] And that's why they're so scary.

[00:08:48] That is that that.

[00:08:49] And like I was I was old enough to have this even though I lived in Texas.

[00:08:54] Get stuck in my head was the 1989 earthquake where the bridge is like

[00:08:57] pancaked and like so every time I go over that one,

[00:09:00] although I know they've retrofitted it, I'm still like.

[00:09:03] So y'all didn't want to do what I did where we did like the super

[00:09:07] touristy triple decker bus and we were on top over the.

[00:09:11] Thank you.

[00:09:12] It was freezing.

[00:09:13] It was like, oh yeah.

[00:09:14] It was June.

[00:09:15] No, it was May and it was freezing.

[00:09:18] Oh yeah.

[00:09:19] Going across that bridge.

[00:09:20] It very rarely gets hot over there.

[00:09:23] Well, I think Mark Twain was said has a quote where he's like the

[00:09:27] the coldest winter I ever spent was the summer in San Francisco.

[00:09:30] That's you know what that's so bad.

[00:09:34] I love it.

[00:09:34] You know what?

[00:09:35] Because I expected because we landed in, I don't know,

[00:09:38] must have been San Jose.

[00:09:39] And we should go.

[00:09:40] We were filming an allotment in Yosemite and so I was expecting

[00:09:44] like warm 70s, 80s.

[00:09:47] I mean, it was in San Jose.

[00:09:49] Then we get into, you know, yeah, in Francisco.

[00:09:52] Yeah, I guess I don't know what it is about San Francisco.

[00:09:54] It's got its own water or what?

[00:09:56] But I was like, yeah, it's surrounded by the water.

[00:09:59] It's foggy.

[00:10:00] It's it's cold.

[00:10:02] It's always always cold.

[00:10:03] I like cold weather, so it makes me happy.

[00:10:06] See, she's a lizard.

[00:10:08] She would live in like one of the lizard.

[00:10:10] Oh, you'll see to come down to Texas.

[00:10:11] It is.

[00:10:12] I'm in Georgia.

[00:10:13] So OK, so you know, you know, I know.

[00:10:15] I thought it was hot all the time.

[00:10:17] I was born on the first day of summer, so we just have decided that she is

[00:10:20] that's yours.

[00:10:22] Yeah, that's yeah.

[00:10:24] Not me.

[00:10:24] OK, so you're like I want the winter.

[00:10:27] Give me the winter.

[00:10:28] OK, so I've seen the games God's play described as Percy Jackson meets

[00:10:33] the Hunger Games but for adults.

[00:10:35] And that is an insanely high honor in my opinion because like what?

[00:10:39] I'm like, I like to have your books live up to those.

[00:10:42] Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

[00:10:43] What's it like to have your book stood up next to such like beloved stories?

[00:10:47] That is like you said it's incredibly humbling

[00:10:50] and what an honor and and and yes, please, please, please, please let me live up to

[00:10:55] that because those are two fantastic series

[00:10:57] and fantastic books with such good writing and such incredible worlds.

[00:11:01] And yeah, to be even like a little bit close to those.

[00:11:04] Yeah. Yeah, please.

[00:11:05] That is yeah.

[00:11:07] That is so cool.

[00:11:07] My George Rocks.

[00:11:08] Yeah, the vibes are so there too.

[00:11:10] Like because you know, and I feel like it's your own story.

[00:11:14] It's your own story.

[00:11:15] But like it keeps it has those vibes

[00:11:18] that like pulled us into Percy Jackson and the Hunger Games.

[00:11:21] And that's good. Yay.

[00:11:22] And it's like, I'm like, OK, I want to keep going.

[00:11:26] I got to talk to people, but I got to keep going.

[00:11:29] So what what is your like writing process?

[00:11:33] I know you have several books, you know, out now,

[00:11:36] but like series series even like do you are you a plotter?

[00:11:40] Are you pancer and does it change depending on what you're writing?

[00:11:43] It changes a little depending on what I'm writing.

[00:11:44] So I am what I call a plancer, which is both a plotter and a pancer.

[00:11:48] I'm a hybrid.

[00:11:50] I started out at very much as a pancer.

[00:11:53] My very first book, not only did I not write it in order,

[00:11:56] but like I wrote it just by the scenes as they came to me

[00:11:59] and then figured out a plot later,

[00:12:01] which is not a path I would recommend.

[00:12:03] And so the pancer is very much there in me.

[00:12:06] And I would say that a large part of me, you know how

[00:12:10] although the book is always better if you watch a movie before the book,

[00:12:13] it almost kind of like you are in like,

[00:12:14] I don't want to read the book now because I know the basic story.

[00:12:17] Like it almost even though, you know, the book is better.

[00:12:21] So yeah, it's the same way.

[00:12:22] I don't need to exactly.

[00:12:24] You do them.

[00:12:26] Yeah.

[00:12:27] And so if I over plot,

[00:12:28] suddenly the writing becomes a lot harder for me

[00:12:31] because I feel like I've already seen this story in my head at least.

[00:12:33] But I'm also very much type A number one achiever

[00:12:37] like must have a plan and a strategy.

[00:12:41] So I have what other author friends have told me

[00:12:44] is an incredibly intimidating spreadsheet of a plot line

[00:12:48] that basically corporate.

[00:12:50] Oh, I'm a spreadsheet like geek.

[00:12:53] I worked for a very big tech company

[00:12:55] for about 10 years as a business analyst.

[00:12:57] So like my my number is.

[00:12:58] That's what I am now.

[00:13:00] Oh, hello. Yeah.

[00:13:03] That's awesome.

[00:13:04] And so it's like a I call it my master beat sheet

[00:13:07] where it takes every possible plot method out there

[00:13:09] and puts it all into one place.

[00:13:10] And I use that.

[00:13:12] I don't feel the whole thing out.

[00:13:13] I'll fill out like the major plot points.

[00:13:16] There's about seven of them that are like it, you know,

[00:13:18] the 25 percent mark, the 50 percent mark, etc.

[00:13:20] So kind of major turning points in the books

[00:13:22] that I kind of know which one I'm writing to at any given point.

[00:13:26] And then I might fill out sections

[00:13:28] if I really see a particular scene or if I know where,

[00:13:32] you know, where this whole section is going,

[00:13:33] I'll take notes so that I don't forget things.

[00:13:35] But I also use it more as a brainstorming tool.

[00:13:38] So like I get stuck and I'm like,

[00:13:39] oh, the pacing feels slow to me.

[00:13:41] Or I'm not quite sure what scene to do next.

[00:13:44] I'll go check my beat sheet and be like,

[00:13:45] oh, that's because I need to be doing this scene now.

[00:13:47] Or, oh, yeah, this is a good one to put here.

[00:13:49] And so it's more of a brainstorming tool

[00:13:51] than it is like a fill it all out kind of plotting method.

[00:13:54] I'm a weird duck like odd combination.

[00:13:57] Not weird at all.

[00:13:58] You're fucking spreadsheet early.

[00:13:59] So yeah.

[00:14:00] Love spreadsheet.

[00:14:01] Best.

[00:14:02] Really are I spreadsheet everything in my life?

[00:14:05] I have a mug that says I have a spreadsheet for that

[00:14:07] and it makes me so happy.

[00:14:08] I have a T-shirt that says that.

[00:14:12] I like the lady in the in the streets

[00:14:15] freaking the spreadsheet.

[00:14:16] Yes, yes.

[00:14:17] But myself.

[00:14:18] With an on-liar.

[00:14:18] Oh, yeah.

[00:14:20] OK, so is it Lyra or Lyra?

[00:14:22] Lyra.

[00:14:23] So my editor and I argue over this because I hear it as Lyra

[00:14:27] just because she's named essentially after the constellation

[00:14:31] Lyra, which is named for the liar for Apollo's

[00:14:35] Lyra that soothed Hades and spits pronunciation.

[00:14:39] I was pronunciation wise, you know, Liz likes Lyra better.

[00:14:42] And so I and I've heard it both ways from people.

[00:14:44] And so I I say Lyra, she says Lyra, we're going to see who wins.

[00:14:47] I read it like you.

[00:14:49] So yeah, me too.

[00:14:50] Lyra literally is killing me.

[00:14:53] Like I'm laughing out loud with her because I'm laughing at her.

[00:14:56] But then I also want to clamp my hand over her mouth

[00:14:57] and be like, stop trying to get yourself killed with this.

[00:15:02] Yeah.

[00:15:03] Was she that way with you when you were riding her?

[00:15:05] Like, did you have to rain her in or was she always supposed

[00:15:08] to be so sassy and dangerous?

[00:15:10] She was always supposed to be that sassy.

[00:15:13] And I had a technique with her this round.

[00:15:16] So I've always written kind of feisty, sassy females who very much

[00:15:19] have at least an inner monologue that's snarking at people

[00:15:22] constantly because that's my inner monologue.

[00:15:26] Relatable.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:27] But with her, I actually had a line written on a post

[00:15:31] it on my computer that says, if you think it, you can say it.

[00:15:34] If you say it, you can say it to the hero.

[00:15:37] Oh.

[00:15:39] And then I think it even said something like, and it's even better

[00:15:41] if they fight about it.

[00:15:42] This is brilliant.

[00:15:44] You could you could see like both of our minds just explode

[00:15:47] and I don't want to start taking notes.

[00:15:49] Like I'm like, what was that?

[00:15:51] I got that out of a workshop and I cannot think of who said that to me.

[00:15:55] And I thought that's brilliant.

[00:15:56] Oh, I'll have to look it up.

[00:15:57] That is so great.

[00:15:58] So it's another writer.

[00:15:59] I can't claim the ownership of that and that came up with that.

[00:16:02] But I was like, that's one of the most brilliant things I've ever heard

[00:16:04] because so much of it in my especially my previous writing

[00:16:06] would go into their inner monologue, which is still funny.

[00:16:09] It's funnier if they say it and especially to hero and especially

[00:16:11] if then they, you know, go back to react to it.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:15] I love it.

[00:16:16] It's so good.

[00:16:17] It's so good for the banter too.

[00:16:19] Like, yeah.

[00:16:20] Yeah, because I love for banter.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] Same.

[00:16:22] Yeah.

[00:16:22] He does.

[00:16:22] He was funny.

[00:16:23] Fun, fun, fun to write.

[00:16:25] Well, and a lot of her snark, I think for me.

[00:16:28] So my natural snark is actually a darker, I would say snark to it.

[00:16:33] And so if I actually said the things in my head, I would probably hurt feelings.

[00:16:36] And so what's fun about her is that for me, I needed her to actually have

[00:16:40] a little bit of sunshine to her because of her curse.

[00:16:44] I needed her to react to the world in a way where she was very deliberately

[00:16:47] trying to be positive.

[00:16:49] And so with each line of hers, I would I would do my darker snark.

[00:16:53] And then I'd be like, how can I?

[00:16:54] How can I lighten this up enough that it's not so that it's

[00:16:57] appropriate for the character and where she's coming from, but at the same time, lighter?

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:01] I like that.

[00:17:02] I relate to you a lot.

[00:17:03] Yeah.

[00:17:04] I'm like the darkest sense of humor.

[00:17:08] So like, I get it.

[00:17:09] You have to have a certain taste to be around me.

[00:17:13] Yes.

[00:17:14] Like I haven't mentioned it on the podcast, but I had death in my family

[00:17:17] this week and the amount of jokes that I have made to process it.

[00:17:21] Most people would be like, what's going on?

[00:17:23] No, no.

[00:17:23] You can't really how I process it.

[00:17:25] I do.

[00:17:26] Oh, I'm coping.

[00:17:27] It's fun.

[00:17:28] Yeah, it is.

[00:17:28] Oh, that's totally a coping mechanism.

[00:17:31] And to me, it's my preferred coping mechanism, which is using it for Lyra, too.

[00:17:35] Because I would rather if I'm in a situation that's just shitty,

[00:17:38] I would rather not go, woe is me and the world sucks.

[00:17:41] I would rather go, OK, let's laugh about it and move on.

[00:17:44] Yeah, yeah, let's laugh and move on.

[00:17:45] We just got to the show must go on.

[00:17:47] Yeah, because otherwise it just it just makes it work.

[00:17:50] I'd rather be laughing.

[00:17:51] I don't think makes me feel bad.

[00:17:52] So let's move on.

[00:17:53] Yeah, crying her eyes makes me up.

[00:17:55] Huffy exactly.

[00:17:57] No, nothing does not.

[00:17:59] Laughing hurts in a different way, though.

[00:18:01] Yeah, true.

[00:18:03] In the good way.

[00:18:05] So you mentioned that you did like research into the mythologies

[00:18:09] the Greek mythologies.

[00:18:10] What's something that it was kind of surprising to you and or and or

[00:18:15] what's something that you found that you wanted to incorporate into the book

[00:18:18] but weren't able to find a spot for it?

[00:18:20] Oh, gosh.

[00:18:21] And so probably the surprising thing I already mentioned it a little bit

[00:18:24] was just rolling across the fact that, oh, we don't scholars, scholars

[00:18:29] of Greek mythology don't really know exactly who wrote what who said what.

[00:18:33] They're even apparently debating at the moment.

[00:18:35] My my mom who's a retired English teacher and has a book club.

[00:18:39] They just read The Odyssey and we've always attributed the Odyssey

[00:18:43] and the Iliad to Homer.

[00:18:44] And so now she said that there's some research

[00:18:48] that shows it might not have been written by the same person.

[00:18:51] So we don't know.

[00:18:52] And that was surprising to me that we don't like that there's not some things

[00:18:56] that are a little bit set in stone, if that makes sense.

[00:18:58] But if you think about it, the Greek gods were so long ago

[00:19:01] that the written word was still not necessarily a thing.

[00:19:05] It was still very orally passed on.

[00:19:06] Well, anybody who's played the game of telephone knows

[00:19:09] that things are going to get changed as you're passing things along orally.

[00:19:12] So and that I think was probably the most surprising that I came across,

[00:19:16] which was actually kind of nice for me just in terms of, OK,

[00:19:20] that does still get like since I'm already going off script

[00:19:22] with how I'm treating these gods, it gives me a little more freedom to be like,

[00:19:25] hey, we don't even know for sure.

[00:19:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:28] I say the same thing with people who are like concerned about how they have

[00:19:32] to follow the Bible to a T and I'm like, OK, it started out as

[00:19:35] you know, oral stories that were told and retold

[00:19:38] and then written down in this language and interpreted.

[00:19:41] Take what resonates, leave what doesn't like that just you have to

[00:19:46] because you don't know. Yeah, so right.

[00:19:48] Yeah. Yeah. So that that was definitely the most surprising part.

[00:19:51] There's definitely it's not that necessarily that I came across anything

[00:19:54] in my research that I didn't manage to put in there, because what I tend to do

[00:19:57] is research what I'm working on at the moment versus like, let me go find a story

[00:20:02] to incorporate. So, you know, for things like that, I had fun,

[00:20:05] like for instance, finding out about Lethy who I always say let me

[00:20:09] because that's what it looks like to me.

[00:20:10] But it's Lethy who is the barkeep in Dionysus's bar in Olympus

[00:20:15] and she's the goddess of oblivion.

[00:20:16] I just thought that was hilarious.

[00:20:17] I was like, let me go find a goddess that might like her power would fit this.

[00:20:22] That's so cool. So perfect.

[00:20:25] So that's tends to be how I research as I go.

[00:20:28] But there are definitely certainly myths that I absolutely want

[00:20:32] to incorporate as I continue going.

[00:20:34] Medusa is a big one of them.

[00:20:36] I'd love to get like Psyche and Aero is one of my favorites.

[00:20:39] I'd like to get those in there.

[00:20:40] Like so there's a few where I'm like, OK, how do I

[00:20:44] I'm going to make it work?

[00:20:46] Do you did you have anything like while you were researching for one thing,

[00:20:51] you found something else that was like, oh, my gosh, this just filled in a plot hole

[00:20:54] for me or this just this can fit here or I know where I'm going to go next now

[00:20:58] with it and not necessarily going next.

[00:21:01] But it's more like, oh, like, especially when I was coming up

[00:21:03] with the games is some of the like they were so much fun,

[00:21:06] so much fun to come up with because I had to look at each individual

[00:21:10] God or goddess's powers and what like they like to do and some things that they had

[00:21:14] done with their powers, you know, against humans or, you know,

[00:21:18] to create constellations or whatever it was and see how I could incorporate that

[00:21:22] into one of the four value groups that they'd been put into the virtues

[00:21:25] in terms of, you know, heart courage, mind.

[00:21:29] And I always forget one strength.

[00:21:32] Yeah, I always forget a different one, which is funny to me.

[00:21:36] She made me laugh that she thought it was going to be like the Olympics.

[00:21:39] Oh, yeah.

[00:21:40] Yeah, are we going to go like foot races?

[00:21:42] Bull alting.

[00:21:43] We're going to play board games.

[00:21:46] He's like, no, no, honey.

[00:21:48] No, baby.

[00:21:49] Let me hold your hand when I say this.

[00:21:51] No, it's not going to be that.

[00:21:53] Yeah, no, you're not playing a twister.

[00:21:55] I'm sorry.

[00:21:56] Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:56] I want to play Tiddly Wings now.

[00:21:58] And so but coming up with those was a lot of fun, particularly in tying

[00:22:01] them to the gods and I wanted to, in some cases,

[00:22:04] I wanted it to be more obvious and go with, you know, the really kind of

[00:22:09] obvious thing, but in some cases like Dionysus, it was like, OK, let's

[00:22:13] let's go away from.

[00:22:14] Well, I mean, there's still alcohol involved, but let's go away from drunk

[00:22:17] and revelry and see what we can do.

[00:22:18] That's very different.

[00:22:19] Yeah. So yeah, that was a lot of fun.

[00:22:21] I love that.

[00:22:21] That's the example you pulled out because that's exactly where I am right now.

[00:22:26] And I'm like, that's I'm sitting here thinking I'm like, well,

[00:22:29] I mean, there is alcohol, but it's not in a way.

[00:22:33] I just thought that was so funny that that was the example you pulled out.

[00:22:36] I'm like, hey, I know that part.

[00:22:39] Well, and that whole scene actually got rewritten originally.

[00:22:41] It was a very different labor and and originally originally that

[00:22:45] whole labor was going to happen off page because just there's so many.

[00:22:50] There's 12 labors and you'll find out we don't get to.

[00:22:52] You don't see all 12 of them on page because that would just be too many.

[00:22:55] And so that one is one that was going to happen off page.

[00:22:57] But I needed a scene where you get to start to see the found family

[00:23:02] element and where they really start to get the contestants

[00:23:05] get start to get to know each other, the champions.

[00:23:07] And and so for that reason, my original version of the labor was kind of lame

[00:23:14] because I was focused more on that found family element than, you know,

[00:23:17] the labor being dangerous and I couldn't have it be a labor where like

[00:23:19] they're fighting the entire time or they're not going to have time for

[00:23:21] conversation. Right. Right.

[00:23:23] And so that was one that my editor and I actually ended up

[00:23:27] coming up with together while we were in edits where I was like, OK,

[00:23:29] what can we what else can we do?

[00:23:30] It's Dionysus. Let's think through this. OK, let's go.

[00:23:32] Yeah. So that was a lot of fun.

[00:23:34] I love it. That's so fun.

[00:23:36] That does sound really fun.

[00:23:37] There. So this is as far as I can see so far.

[00:23:42] It's it's primarily Greek mythology.

[00:23:45] But there are like mentions of other gods and other pantheons.

[00:23:50] Are we going to see more of them in later books?

[00:23:54] And why did you choose to include that as well?

[00:23:58] Well, so I chose to include it mostly because, first of all,

[00:24:02] the world that we currently live in, even if we don't worship Greek gods,

[00:24:05] we have multiple theologies out there.

[00:24:08] Right. And so that to me is a very normalized element of humanity.

[00:24:13] And so if we're going to have Greek gods, why wouldn't also the North

[00:24:16] gods and the Celtic gods and the Egyptian gods and the, you know,

[00:24:19] so on and so forth also be real also because all of those mythologies.

[00:24:23] I love all mythologies.

[00:24:24] I find the human method of telling each other stories like that.

[00:24:29] And for whatever reason,

[00:24:31] then whatever ways are just fascinating and the stories were amazing.

[00:24:33] And so I love all mythologies.

[00:24:36] So that's that's why is that it's like to me, that's a very like that's

[00:24:39] how that would roll if Greek gods are still around.

[00:24:41] So are the others.

[00:24:42] Yeah. But incorporating them into the next book.

[00:24:45] So I'll definitely have more touch points where you might see like one pop

[00:24:49] up like, for instance, we already mentioned like the axes are from Odin.

[00:24:52] And so we'll see.

[00:24:54] We'll see a little bit more touch points.

[00:24:56] If I do a lot more with them, it would probably need to be in spin-offs.

[00:25:00] That would be cool though.

[00:25:01] It would be like a adult like Rick Rariden, maybe.

[00:25:06] I mean, it seems like I love playing in these in this world so much.

[00:25:11] I am and as you can see, like I'm a major series writer.

[00:25:15] So I'm yeah, I'm perfectly happy.

[00:25:18] Never say never.

[00:25:18] And off after that would be so fun.

[00:25:21] You said something that made me feel so warm and cozy talking about like

[00:25:24] how like the human nature is stories.

[00:25:27] Her like her billions, hundreds of thousands of years.

[00:25:31] We've been telling each other stories.

[00:25:32] How special is that?

[00:25:34] To me, that's incredible.

[00:25:35] That is incredible that like that's what we that's what we default to.

[00:25:39] It is. It's what we default to.

[00:25:41] And for so many reasons as a warning, as an entertainment,

[00:25:44] as a way to connect, as a, you know, a way to understand the world around us

[00:25:48] as like there's just so many so many functions to story.

[00:25:52] And and so and to me as a writer, I see the entire world in terms of story.

[00:25:58] So like every little snippet to me is like, oh, there's that's part of a story.

[00:26:01] It might not be the story that I'm part of, but I'm watching a part of a story.

[00:26:04] Yeah, but could be somebody else's story.

[00:26:06] Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:26:07] OK, we don't want to keep you too long,

[00:26:09] but we do have a couple of questions that we always ask our guests.

[00:26:13] The first is we have a segment on the podcast,

[00:26:16] which we call fictional boyfriend of the week.

[00:26:18] So we pick a character that we love that week.

[00:26:20] It doesn't necessarily have to be a boyfriend.

[00:26:22] It could be like I've had a fictional granny.

[00:26:24] We've had fictional found families, anything like that.

[00:26:27] So is there a fictional character that you really love that you want people to know about?

[00:26:33] Oh, gosh, there's so many.

[00:26:36] So so this is where everything you've ever read or watched about your brain.

[00:26:41] It does. Yeah, I'm totally blanking all over the place.

[00:26:44] And who are my favorite characters?

[00:26:46] Fictional. So I'm probably going to.

[00:26:51] See, I have them locked and loaded and I even have Karen's ready.

[00:26:54] Where other like she is like, they're in the head.

[00:26:57] Anybody Chloe Gong has ever written.

[00:27:00] And I'm like, don't ask me.

[00:27:01] Ask me, Andy. Yeah.

[00:27:03] Well, and from from a book's standpoint, I would say

[00:27:06] Rebecca Zanetti has a character named Talon,

[00:27:09] who is like how I got into adult paranormal romance after Twilight.

[00:27:13] And so he's always going to be he's a little bit Jason Momoa, basically.

[00:27:17] And so he will always be a favorite of mine in the fictional space.

[00:27:22] Oh, gosh. Well, and I'm I'm I'm a bit of a traditional fantasy reader.

[00:27:25] So of course, I've got to say like Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, because I mean, yeah,

[00:27:30] it doesn't get you're human being.

[00:27:33] Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:35] I'm also a Luke Skywalker, because Star Wars is what first got me to sci-fi

[00:27:37] fantasy in the first place that he'll always be one of my favorite characters ever.

[00:27:41] And if you go more into like traditional romance, I'm probably looking at

[00:27:47] oh, gosh, who?

[00:27:49] Well, you've got to go private prejudice and Lizzie Bennett like the end of the year.

[00:27:52] I see like always on any any prejudice retelling I'm here for.

[00:27:56] Oh, great. By far.

[00:27:57] And then if you kind of go into more like the movie in TV space,

[00:28:00] like I'm a Thomas Shelby from Peaky Blinders, like that character

[00:28:04] will always be one of my very favorite characters.

[00:28:07] Same for and the character's name is suddenly escaping me from

[00:28:10] and so is the name of the show.

[00:28:12] It's the one about the trains and the wild west that was on AMC for years.

[00:28:16] Oh, not Hello Wheels.

[00:28:19] Hello Wheels, yes.

[00:28:20] Hello, I'm a panel.

[00:28:22] Oh, I love that man.

[00:28:25] I love that man so much.

[00:28:27] And if you talk about a really great character that just turns into like a

[00:28:31] total squish, yeah, love years of Facebook memories where it's like, oh,

[00:28:35] my God, guys, it's Hill and Wheels season.

[00:28:36] What's my hand going to do now?

[00:28:38] Oh, yes.

[00:28:39] I loved that show.

[00:28:41] Yep. Yes.

[00:28:42] And he has to be Bohan and like, I don't find that like I'm I have weird taste.

[00:28:47] OK, I don't find that actor attractive at all.

[00:28:49] Really?

[00:28:50] Less. He is.

[00:28:51] And he's like Bohan and Bohan and get up.

[00:28:54] No, no, I've seen him as a couple of other things.

[00:28:56] He's still good.

[00:28:59] I just have to have the long hair, dirty.

[00:29:02] Well, there's just something about that character and he nailed it.

[00:29:05] He just nailed that character.

[00:29:06] Yes, he did.

[00:29:07] And so, yeah, so that's a great character.

[00:29:10] So yeah, I have to rewatch that.

[00:29:12] Morally gray.

[00:29:13] Yeah, characters.

[00:29:15] OK, this is kind of similar vein.

[00:29:17] We know we love your books.

[00:29:19] We're going to recommend your book, of course.

[00:29:21] But what are you reading?

[00:29:23] Like what what do you recommend that people read when you're not writing?

[00:29:27] Right now, I skip around.

[00:29:28] So I was just reading in this lifetime by Mark Kuggenheim.

[00:29:31] And I happened to grab it, pick it up at a galaxy con that I was at recently.

[00:29:35] It was fantastic.

[00:29:36] It's time travel with like grief and romance and like so good.

[00:29:40] I not quite as recently and just completely fell in love

[00:29:45] with my broken blaze, which is another Red Tower title.

[00:29:47] But my it's such a good job with every single character in that.

[00:29:51] I was like every time I would change that be like, oh, I don't want to leave this one.

[00:29:54] But yeah, it was with Aragon too.

[00:29:57] It's like, but I don't want to leave.

[00:29:59] And then you're like, I want to go back exactly.

[00:30:01] Yeah. So yeah, she did such a fantastic job with that.

[00:30:04] So that was definitely high on my list.

[00:30:06] I read recently, Rebecca Zanetti again, her most recent,

[00:30:09] which is the one cursed rose, I think is what it's called,

[00:30:12] which gets kind of more into a fairy tale fantasy romance.

[00:30:14] And I love any kind of fairy tale retelling.

[00:30:16] So those are those are my more recent ones.

[00:30:18] Oh, yeah. Love it.

[00:30:20] Yeah. Before we let you go, can you tell us what you're working on now?

[00:30:24] Give us any kind of sneak peeks into what comes next?

[00:30:27] What comes next?

[00:30:28] So I've got a few books that are done and coming.

[00:30:31] And so they recovered my Dragon Shifters, my Inferno Rising series.

[00:30:36] And the first two books are out and the second two books with the recover

[00:30:38] are coming in December.

[00:30:40] And those all have bonus scenes in the back.

[00:30:41] And then the Liars Crown series.

[00:30:44] So that's a trilogy.

[00:30:45] And the third book finally comes out in November.

[00:30:48] So I'm really excited to see how readers respond to that one

[00:30:51] wrapping up.

[00:30:52] And then what I'm working on right now,

[00:30:53] my work in progress is book two for Games God's Play.

[00:30:56] And I have the title and I just saw the cover

[00:30:58] and I can't tell you anything about it, but it's amazing.

[00:31:02] Exciting.

[00:31:03] Excited.

[00:31:04] Well, on that note, we do have to let you know that unfortunately for you now

[00:31:08] that you've been on the podcast, you're actually legally obligated

[00:31:11] to come back for all future book releases.

[00:31:14] I'm so sorry. We don't make the rules.

[00:31:17] You should have to enforce some with these things.

[00:31:19] I didn't bled before.

[00:31:21] It was in what we like to say it was in fine print in white.

[00:31:25] So, you know, it was there.

[00:31:27] Oh, my gosh, I would love to come back.

[00:31:28] That's awesome.

[00:31:29] You don't even have to find out.

[00:31:33] Thank you so much for spending some time with us, Abigail.

[00:31:36] This has been so much.

[00:31:37] It's been great.

[00:31:38] Everybody go when this episode comes out, this book will be out.

[00:31:43] So go grab a copy of the Games God's Play.

[00:31:45] If you haven't seen the first printing special deluxe edition, like you need to run.

[00:31:51] Go.

[00:31:52] Yeah, beautiful.

[00:31:53] They're just it's so beautiful.

[00:31:55] Yes.

[00:31:56] And so I'm so excited for my preorder to show up.

[00:31:59] I'm like, those edges are so everybody go walk into a bookstore.

[00:32:04] You can grab it now.

[00:32:05] Thank you. Thank you.

[00:32:06] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:32:08] It was so much fun and we can't wait for the next time.

[00:32:11] Yeah, definitely.

[00:32:12] Oh yeah.

[00:32:13] Tell just tell me when.

[00:32:14] Yes, ma'am.

[00:32:16] All right.

[00:32:17] Thank you so much.

[00:32:18] We'll talk to you soon.

[00:32:20] Thank you.

[00:32:21] I love her.

[00:32:23] I love her.

[00:32:24] I love her.

[00:32:25] One of us.

[00:32:25] One of us love her.

[00:32:27] Love her so much.

[00:32:28] Like we have the best taste.

[00:32:31] We have the best taste.

[00:32:32] Like, I mean, we're the best.

[00:32:35] I had a thought today while I was brushing my teeth to come up here to record.

[00:32:40] It just popped into my brain.

[00:32:42] What if Ben Barnes wrote a book?

[00:32:45] I mean, the lengths we would have to go to to make that happen.

[00:32:49] I will go to them all.

[00:32:51] I'm here for it.

[00:32:52] Listen.

[00:32:52] I was just like, listen, let me manifest.

[00:32:55] He needs to write a book.

[00:32:56] We have gone to many lengths for many people.

[00:32:59] So it would not be anything new for us.

[00:33:02] I don't know why that just popped into my head, but I was like, Ben Barnes wrote a book.

[00:33:06] I love that.

[00:33:07] And you can come on the podcast.

[00:33:08] I would be so sweaty.

[00:33:10] I love that so much.

[00:33:11] I love especially since we have Kaylee coming on next.

[00:33:15] I love that.

[00:33:16] I know I have a note about it.

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:17] Yeah, I was like, I'm going to read your text to her.

[00:33:21] I was I told her.

[00:33:23] Yeah, I was I was reading it and I was just like, he, he, he, he, he.

[00:33:27] And then he.

[00:33:29] Yeah.

[00:33:30] Oh man.

[00:33:31] Good times.

[00:33:32] Oh gosh, I love that was so much fun.

[00:33:34] Yeah.

[00:33:35] That sound means we have another intruder alert.

[00:33:43] I'm so excited.

[00:33:46] I feel like this has been in the works forever.

[00:33:48] So I'm so excited to let you all know that we have Kaylee Smith,

[00:33:51] author of Fantasma, among other things.

[00:33:54] To join us here.

[00:33:56] We're so excited to have you.

[00:33:57] Thank you so much.

[00:33:59] I'm literally so excited to be here.

[00:34:01] I also feel like this has just been like in the works.

[00:34:04] I feel like we can run into each other so many times.

[00:34:09] Yes.

[00:34:10] My my husband was like, how did you meet Karen?

[00:34:12] Because I told him I was like, I literally don't.

[00:34:16] We just started running.

[00:34:16] I don't I don't know.

[00:34:18] It just happened.

[00:34:19] It just happened.

[00:34:20] I think probably like when your first book came out,

[00:34:24] I was just like in your DMs.

[00:34:26] I'm like, hey, hi, we're best friends now.

[00:34:29] And then we like physically ran into each other.

[00:34:31] And I was like, well, this is just how it is now.

[00:34:35] It's so it's so easy to get me because like I'll just scroll.

[00:34:38] I'll just be scrolling at 2 a.m.

[00:34:39] I'm such a night owl.

[00:34:41] Like if you're in my DMs chances are

[00:34:42] I will probably answer you at some point.

[00:34:47] I love that.

[00:34:48] It's the best time.

[00:34:51] OK, sorry, we're going to be professional, I swear.

[00:34:56] So I know it's a lot.

[00:34:57] I would like.

[00:34:59] It's a straight line.

[00:35:01] But what I do want, what we normally ask is,

[00:35:03] can you give us like an elevator pitch of the book

[00:35:05] for anybody who hasn't heard of that?

[00:35:07] OK, yes.

[00:35:07] So Fantasma is about a necromancer named Ophelia Grimm

[00:35:12] who loses her mother and her and her sister find out

[00:35:17] that her mother has been in secret debt for a very long time.

[00:35:22] And in order to pay off that debt,

[00:35:24] her little sister, Genevieve, runs away and joins this haunted

[00:35:27] house competition named Fantasma.

[00:35:30] And Fantasma is made up of nine levels,

[00:35:33] which are mirrored with the nine circles of hell.

[00:35:36] And if you win all nine levels without dying,

[00:35:40] you get one favor from a devil of your choice.

[00:35:45] So Ophelia goes after her sister

[00:35:46] and in order to win the competition and save her family home

[00:35:51] and get themselves out of debt, she makes a like

[00:35:54] Faustian sort of bargain with a very hot phantom named Blackwell

[00:35:59] in exchange for 10 years of her life.

[00:36:01] So it's spooky, it's romantic.

[00:36:05] It's my favorite thing.

[00:36:06] I'm having a hard time trying to think of anything

[00:36:09] I'm going to love more than writing that.

[00:36:11] It is so, so good.

[00:36:14] It was like and it's like the best kind of shenanigans in the zoo,

[00:36:18] like because they're in this competition and it's like, oh, no,

[00:36:21] life or death, but also romance.

[00:36:26] So fun.

[00:36:27] It's like my favorite thing in the entire world is because I love romance

[00:36:31] and I will always be a romantic author.

[00:36:34] It's just the kind of reader I am, too.

[00:36:36] So my favorite thing in the entire world is just to see

[00:36:38] like how I can make romance the most inconvenient aspect

[00:36:42] will remind me.

[00:36:45] And I just bought plots from there.

[00:36:47] That's also there are books out there that don't have any romance at all.

[00:36:51] Like, how? Yeah, I don't know.

[00:36:53] I can survive. Why do you enjoy?

[00:36:58] It's like, I always, I always get it because like my partner

[00:37:01] is in a huge romance reader and stuff.

[00:37:03] And so it's like, I get that I, however, personally can't make it through.

[00:37:07] And I feel like no, I need it.

[00:37:10] I need to crave it.

[00:37:11] Even just like a little bit, like I can as long as there's just like little

[00:37:15] inklings of it, it doesn't have to be like full on romance plot.

[00:37:18] But like, I just need something.

[00:37:20] Something.

[00:37:21] Give me something to keep me going.

[00:37:22] Yeah, I need something to yearn for.

[00:37:24] Is yeah. Exactly.

[00:37:27] OK, so I am a fantasy loving Disney adult.

[00:37:31] And so you and I'm proud of that.

[00:37:32] OK, I'm proud of being a Disney adult.

[00:37:35] But you've checked all of my boxes with a deadly contest

[00:37:38] and demons inside of a haunted mansion.

[00:37:41] Where did this story come from?

[00:37:43] OK, so I have I have two answers to that question.

[00:37:47] I think that's like the most popular question, obviously,

[00:37:49] like we're asked for a new book.

[00:37:51] And I always kind of straddle the line of being like this

[00:37:55] book is very deeply personal to me.

[00:37:58] It Ophelia has OCD and that's something I've lived with my whole life.

[00:38:01] And I had since like college, I had had notes scribbled down.

[00:38:06] I was an art history major.

[00:38:06] That's when I learned about Phantasmagoria as like an artistic concept.

[00:38:11] And I had like my OCD stuff and like this could be like a psychological

[00:38:15] horror aspect, like I had always had these things like floating around.

[00:38:19] And at the time I was also taking a lot of literature classes

[00:38:23] and we read Dante's Inferno and I was just obsessed.

[00:38:26] So it's kind of like it's just like kind of an amalgamation

[00:38:29] of like all of those things and finally just getting a chance to sit down

[00:38:34] and really go through them and write them.

[00:38:37] So I think the story was just like it naturally kind of developed

[00:38:41] because of the aspects of things I was living in my own life, which I love.

[00:38:45] And I love that when you read my books, you can like scratch the surface

[00:38:47] and there's like something beyond.

[00:38:50] But on a more real level, I wrote this book

[00:38:52] because I wanted a ghost to fuck someone in blood.

[00:38:56] So look.

[00:39:00] I was on that note.

[00:39:05] I was thinking while you were answering, this book feels like

[00:39:09] something that Hozier would write songs about.

[00:39:12] And the lord of the house.

[00:39:14] Of it.

[00:39:16] I mean, I mean it to me, but that sounds like something Hozier

[00:39:20] would write a song about.

[00:39:21] I'm just saying it's like it's really funny.

[00:39:24] Like I also imagine speaking of songwriting just like,

[00:39:27] you know, artists talk about how no song kind of forms the same.

[00:39:32] Like sometimes you start with the melody, sometimes to start with lyrics or whatever.

[00:39:35] I feel that way about books as well.

[00:39:37] And so this it was just like I had all those pieces, like I said,

[00:39:41] like I've been researching them all.

[00:39:42] I hadn't connected all those pieces yet.

[00:39:44] They were just random things from that part of my life that I had jotted down.

[00:39:48] But what connected them all was the drive that I was like,

[00:39:52] what could I possibly put together that would make it make sense

[00:39:56] for someone to fucking blood?

[00:39:58] You know what I mean?

[00:39:59] Yeah, that came to me.

[00:40:02] And then I swear all the other pieces just went whoop.

[00:40:04] And so yeah, that's that.

[00:40:07] I feel I like say that sometimes I feel like people kind of like look at me.

[00:40:12] But I'm like, I don't think we have nearly enough like spooky horror romance.

[00:40:16] Like I know I'm such a spooky season girl.

[00:40:19] So I look, I'm married to a ghost hunter.

[00:40:21] So I'm with you.

[00:40:23] Oh, wait.

[00:40:25] See, that's another.

[00:40:25] Yeah, OK.

[00:40:28] It's always spooky season here.

[00:40:32] It's so funny because like that specific scene that you're talking about,

[00:40:37] I was like I was messaging you the whole time I was reading the book

[00:40:41] and I was just like, Hailey, what?

[00:40:44] What? Why do I love this so much?

[00:40:47] It's it's like one of those things that I feel like no one asked for.

[00:40:51] But once they get it, they're like, hold on.

[00:40:53] What are they?

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:56] So yeah, it's actually that whole chapter is my favorite part.

[00:41:00] It's like it's it's kind of the thesis I would say of like my craving to write the book.

[00:41:06] But you know, once we get beyond that and like, OK,

[00:41:08] I actually have to have substance in a plot here because that's really important

[00:41:11] to me too, that like if you're not someone who likes romance or spice

[00:41:14] that you can kind of like cut those aspects out of my books

[00:41:18] and still have like a very well developed book characters.

[00:41:21] So it's always my goal.

[00:41:23] Yeah, I think you manage that.

[00:41:25] Like it's it's very balanced between like the competition

[00:41:28] and the kind of horror, more horror aspects and the romance.

[00:41:33] I my question just left my brain.

[00:41:38] Wait, what just happened?

[00:41:40] I like zoned out for a second.

[00:41:41] I was like, everything got lost.

[00:41:44] Mandy, go first. I've lost it.

[00:41:45] OK, so Karen told me something about this book

[00:41:48] that will ensure that I will read it like this weekend.

[00:41:53] She texted me and she said, Phantom just showed up in a picture

[00:41:56] in a white haired, jewelry and I'd been Barnes to do with that.

[00:41:59] What you will Ben Barnes is my Roman Empire.

[00:42:02] Is my raison d'etre?

[00:42:04] How did you know?

[00:42:06] I wait, I love that.

[00:42:08] Actually, that's so funny.

[00:42:09] Karen messaged that to me too.

[00:42:11] Like I'm imagining from Barnes and I was like, which I I looked him up after.

[00:42:16] I miss the Ben Barnes train.

[00:42:19] I know, I know, I get I get this a lot.

[00:42:21] I did fully missed it.

[00:42:23] I didn't watch like Narnia or anything growing up.

[00:42:25] So like he was never really in my in my repertoire.

[00:42:29] But I watch Shadow and Bone.

[00:42:31] I only I only Ben Barnes is only front of mind for me ever because of Mandy.

[00:42:36] Like I also we're in the same boat.

[00:42:38] Yeah, yeah, you're getting everyone on that.

[00:42:41] On the.

[00:42:42] I say.

[00:42:43] And I think that's a valiant.

[00:42:44] You know who I this is me with Tom Blight and I imagine like,

[00:42:49] have you seen the New Hungry Moons movie?

[00:42:52] Yeah. OK.

[00:42:54] It's incredible.

[00:42:55] He plays like young President Snow.

[00:42:57] Yeah.

[00:42:58] And like with the bleach hair.

[00:43:00] And I'm like, I need that man to be booked and busy.

[00:43:02] And I'm very cross that he's not.

[00:43:03] And then he got cast in the Henry movie.

[00:43:05] And I was the universe.

[00:43:07] Thank you.

[00:43:09] Somebody was listening.

[00:43:11] Yeah.

[00:43:13] See, that's how I felt when they did Shadow and Bone,

[00:43:15] when it's like he plays the Darkling.

[00:43:17] And so he's just like moving around in cloaks for hours.

[00:43:22] And I'm just like this world needed.

[00:43:24] We have world peace if everyone would just sit down,

[00:43:27] shut up and watch this man blow around in a cloak.

[00:43:30] Like are we healing?

[00:43:31] Maybe.

[00:43:33] It's going to be fine guys.

[00:43:35] Just look.

[00:43:36] Oh my God.

[00:43:37] I love it. I love it.

[00:43:39] Yeah, literally, I think we had just had a conversation

[00:43:42] about Ben Barnes and then I was reading and I was like,

[00:43:45] Blackwell showed up and like, well,

[00:43:46] well, that's I can't see anything else now.

[00:43:49] I just can't.

[00:43:50] You know, probably when I hijacked our story for him

[00:43:53] doing like that.

[00:43:54] I think that's probably part of it.

[00:43:58] He's very tall, so that makes sense, right?

[00:44:01] I think that was part of it too.

[00:44:02] I was like, he's very tall.

[00:44:04] And I just said the vibes, just the vibes.

[00:44:06] And I was like, you know what?

[00:44:08] I'm going to.

[00:44:10] I've still not found my question.

[00:44:14] No, I'm listening to you.

[00:44:15] I did it.

[00:44:16] I am so incoherent.

[00:44:19] This is not how we normally do things.

[00:44:22] Normally, I'm much better than this, but.

[00:44:25] This is me when I'm like in the middle of talking

[00:44:27] and I forget what the actual why I started talking

[00:44:30] in the first place and really,

[00:44:31] I don't know how to end this sentence anymore.

[00:44:33] Like, I remembered.

[00:44:34] I remember guys.

[00:44:37] It's going well.

[00:44:39] OK, so this is your adult debut.

[00:44:42] You started in YA, which also if you all haven't read,

[00:44:45] I don't I don't have any use for you.

[00:44:47] Go read Kaylee's other books.

[00:44:49] But this is your adult debut.

[00:44:51] So what was it like switching from YA brain to adult brain?

[00:44:55] And was that did that change your writing process in any way?

[00:44:58] Or was it kind of just meh, I'm writing.

[00:45:00] So I think the only thing that really changed was just

[00:45:03] the content and the subject matter and a little bit of my voice,

[00:45:07] like my actual writing voice, because obviously,

[00:45:10] like they're more adult than my teens are in my YA.

[00:45:14] But the process itself didn't change too much.

[00:45:17] I tend to write my books all the same.

[00:45:19] I do really heavy, bulleted outlines

[00:45:22] like the overall series.

[00:45:24] And then I do the individual books

[00:45:25] because my biggest pet peeve is reading a series

[00:45:29] and there weren't like breadcrumbs for the last book

[00:45:32] from the beginning of the first one.

[00:45:34] Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:34] Just it feels so much more satisfying

[00:45:37] when you can go back and reread something and be like,

[00:45:39] oh my God, it was here all along.

[00:45:42] Yes. I always say if you're reading one of my series,

[00:45:45] I basically tell you like who dies and who like what happens

[00:45:49] like everyone's fate and like little Easter eggs from book one.

[00:45:53] Like if you really wanted to go through

[00:45:55] and make like really delusional theories,

[00:45:57] you probably pick a theory.

[00:46:00] So like my process stays the same,

[00:46:02] but I would say my voice is definitely a little different.

[00:46:04] Like obviously this is much more adult.

[00:46:08] I also feel a different sort of responsibility

[00:46:10] with my YA books because it's like,

[00:46:13] especially with the romance and the relationship aspects,

[00:46:15] I know I am writing for people

[00:46:17] who haven't yet developed a sense of self

[00:46:19] or like the sort of relationships they deserve,

[00:46:22] that kind of self-esteem, how a partner should treat them.

[00:46:25] So I try to be a little more blatant

[00:46:27] with the content that I'm writing for them.

[00:46:29] Whereas with adults,

[00:46:31] I get to write things that are really morally gray

[00:46:33] because I can kind of like lean on the fact

[00:46:35] that my audience knows.

[00:46:37] Knows better.

[00:46:39] Like they...

[00:46:39] That's what to accept.

[00:46:40] Exactly.

[00:46:41] So it's like, you know,

[00:46:42] someone does something like really questionable and not great,

[00:46:45] but it's like, you know that it's like...

[00:46:48] In real life that's not...

[00:46:49] Right. And you can like separate the two.

[00:46:51] So that's like, that's kind of how I approach it differently.

[00:46:54] Makes sense.

[00:46:55] I love that you're mindful of that too.

[00:46:57] Like that's special.

[00:46:58] I think, I just think teens,

[00:47:01] like books saved my life as a teen

[00:47:02] and I know like if I had gotten to go back

[00:47:06] and had a better sense of self,

[00:47:08] it would have been a lot easier.

[00:47:09] So it's like, I wrote books

[00:47:11] that I wanted when I was that age

[00:47:13] and like that is really important to me.

[00:47:15] But yeah, the switch to adult,

[00:47:17] honestly, was really great though.

[00:47:19] I will probably stay here for a while

[00:47:21] because I can do anything

[00:47:23] which I would very much like to thank you

[00:47:27] for doing it with forever because I love them so much.

[00:47:31] I love them so much when this book was announced.

[00:47:35] So I was just like,

[00:47:36] two of my favorite things combining.

[00:47:40] What do I do with my hands?

[00:47:41] They have been such a great team,

[00:47:44] like to be honest,

[00:47:46] if I didn't ever have to leave, I wouldn't.

[00:47:47] They've been incredible.

[00:47:48] My publicist Caroline Green, I love her,

[00:47:52] would die for her.

[00:47:53] She's phenomenal.

[00:47:54] She messaged me this morning.

[00:47:56] She's like, I'm about to send you an email

[00:47:58] that you're gonna love.

[00:47:59] And I'm like, I already love this, what's happening?

[00:48:01] I love her so much.

[00:48:03] Yeah, she's great.

[00:48:04] Shout out to Caroline.

[00:48:06] Yeah, it's been,

[00:48:07] honestly, it's been so wonderful to work with them.

[00:48:09] Also like working in the adult space,

[00:48:12] like this book is just moving through the space

[00:48:14] a lot differently than my young adult series.

[00:48:17] So it's just, it's been like a world

[00:48:19] where it's almost been like brand new,

[00:48:20] like the full experience.

[00:48:22] So yeah.

[00:48:22] That is so cool.

[00:48:24] Yeah.

[00:48:25] Like what is it like publishing YA

[00:48:27] and then publishing adult?

[00:48:28] What are like, what are those differences?

[00:48:30] I would, so the market is very different, right?

[00:48:32] I think when you're writing anything YA and younger,

[00:48:36] you are not marketing directly to your consumer.

[00:48:38] You are marketing to the parents

[00:48:41] or people who have agency or a librarian.

[00:48:44] Yeah, yeah.

[00:48:45] And though adults read YA,

[00:48:47] I love YA, we'll never stop reading it.

[00:48:49] A lot of it.

[00:48:50] However, I think just like when it goes into like book criticism

[00:48:54] or like the content and stuff, it's just different.

[00:48:56] Like I'm not writing for that audience.

[00:48:58] So like I am, I'm writing for younger readers.

[00:49:01] So it's like people's perception of the books

[00:49:03] is just a lot different.

[00:49:04] And that's like something I feel like

[00:49:06] we have to kind of keep in mind

[00:49:07] when people are like discussing your books and stuff.

[00:49:09] Like a lot of them are adults online and stuff.

[00:49:11] And so, and that's perfectly okay.

[00:49:13] Love that.

[00:49:14] But it's just, it's just different.

[00:49:15] Like because I'm like, you hear like criticism

[00:49:17] where you're like, okay, how do I make the next project better?

[00:49:20] But then you talk to teens

[00:49:21] and their perception of it vastly different.

[00:49:24] Meanwhile, when you're marketing to adults,

[00:49:26] you're marketing people with direct agency.

[00:49:28] So it's like direct to consumer.

[00:49:30] They can actually be online in my spaces

[00:49:33] and interact with me because they're an age to do so.

[00:49:36] And then like when they criticize a book

[00:49:38] or like they're analyzing a book,

[00:49:41] it's like the one-to-one ratio of content

[00:49:44] versus like what they're getting out of it.

[00:49:46] I feel like it's more very level and on par, right?

[00:49:49] So it's just, yeah, it's just a very different experience

[00:49:53] like with readers and stuff.

[00:49:54] And I actually, I don't read like reviews

[00:49:56] or anything like that, but I think it is interesting

[00:50:00] like how the books move

[00:50:02] and how they're talked about like with one age to the other.

[00:50:05] And so, yeah, this has just been very interesting

[00:50:08] like overall to watch Phantasma,

[00:50:11] like people making videos.

[00:50:13] I've never had so many DMs in my whole entire life

[00:50:15] and it's like, I'm so grateful

[00:50:16] it's being like well-received like this.

[00:50:18] Yeah.

[00:50:19] But yeah, speaking of well-received, I mean, like,

[00:50:24] I think, I don't know if you mentioned it

[00:50:26] before we started officially recording or anything

[00:50:28] and this episode is coming out in September.

[00:50:30] So we can talk about this,

[00:50:32] but Phantasma's a book of a lot.

[00:50:34] Like that's huge.

[00:50:37] That's so exciting.

[00:50:39] One, when did you find out

[00:50:41] because that's a secret that I would probably die trying to keep?

[00:50:46] Yeah. So I found out in June

[00:50:49] and that was me and my agent waking up.

[00:50:52] Like my editor and publicist are not the ones who emailed me.

[00:50:55] It was like one of the heads of Peshet,

[00:50:58] like sending me an email like, you got picked for this.

[00:51:01] And I was just sitting there like reading the email

[00:51:04] like what is going on?

[00:51:07] It's like just going very suspiciously well

[00:51:09] because I am very aware that I don't think

[00:51:11] that's like their usual content.

[00:51:13] Like I don't think they do a ton of like romantic stuff.

[00:51:16] And so I was just like, okay.

[00:51:17] And then I tried to forget about it

[00:51:20] because I'm horrible at keeping secrets.

[00:51:22] I literally, I told my,

[00:51:23] I didn't even tell my mom because I knew.

[00:51:24] I was like, you're that woman.

[00:51:26] The whole world would have known.

[00:51:27] Love you mom.

[00:51:28] But I didn't tell my sister-in-law

[00:51:32] who I tell like she's my number one supporter of books.

[00:51:36] Like I told no one.

[00:51:37] And so I was so afraid that I was gonna wake up this week

[00:51:42] when they told me things would start going out.

[00:51:44] And like it wouldn't actually be there.

[00:51:46] Like it was all just like a joke that I made up.

[00:51:48] Like I was terrified.

[00:51:49] Oh my God.

[00:51:50] And so I woke up yesterday and people are like,

[00:51:53] we have other friends texting me.

[00:51:55] And he's like, oh my God.

[00:51:56] This is like, I'm just sitting here like, oh.

[00:51:59] Yeah.

[00:52:00] I did the same thing.

[00:52:01] I didn't spoil it.

[00:52:02] I got the email from Book of the Month

[00:52:04] and I was like, Kayley!

[00:52:05] Kayley!

[00:52:06] And I was like, wait, she already knows.

[00:52:09] But...

[00:52:09] This is wild.

[00:52:11] Yeah.

[00:52:12] It's seeing the metrics of that also.

[00:52:15] It's very, very different.

[00:52:16] Because another thing like moving and publishing,

[00:52:18] I love YA.

[00:52:19] I think YA has a lot going on.

[00:52:21] There's still a lot of content for it.

[00:52:23] And again, we're pushing that content

[00:52:26] of people who don't have agency with their own money.

[00:52:28] So it's like a different marketing mindset

[00:52:31] or like how we move there.

[00:52:32] Like how we tried to get our books out places.

[00:52:34] Whereas like the adult space, I just had a point.

[00:52:38] And you see what I mean?

[00:52:39] I start talking.

[00:52:40] See?

[00:52:41] We're the same.

[00:52:42] You are one of us.

[00:52:44] No, who has ever done this before?

[00:52:45] I can't even remember.

[00:52:47] But like it's just moving through the whole

[00:52:50] like Zeitgeist a lot differently.

[00:52:53] And like Book of the Month, I was just like,

[00:52:54] yeah, this is Florida.

[00:52:56] I saw my two reads, like my ads to reads.

[00:52:59] Someone sent me a screenshot.

[00:53:01] I think before it was announced,

[00:53:02] we brought like 7,000.

[00:53:04] And today I woke up and it's at like 12.

[00:53:07] And I'm like, oh.

[00:53:08] That's amazing.

[00:53:09] Are you excited?

[00:53:10] That is so exciting.

[00:53:12] That's the point I was going to make.

[00:53:15] Oh my gosh.

[00:53:16] No, OK.

[00:53:17] Yes, it's like so sales.

[00:53:18] If you take your top YA seller

[00:53:20] like right now on like whoever that might be,

[00:53:23] like let's say they're moving like 200,000 copies.

[00:53:27] Your top adult is moving like 800,000.

[00:53:30] Like the disparity between sales

[00:53:32] so it's like, no, they're like their careers are just as good.

[00:53:35] Like it's not that.

[00:53:36] It's just like the units of books moved vastly different

[00:53:40] between YA and adults.

[00:53:42] So that was the point I was trying to make.

[00:53:43] So sorry.

[00:53:44] No, that's all.

[00:53:45] I love like I never would have imagined that.

[00:53:49] Like never would have thought about the disparity in units

[00:53:53] move like and it makes so much sense when you think about it.

[00:53:56] But it's like, oh, until somebody points it out, I'm like.

[00:54:00] Yeah, it's I love metrics.

[00:54:01] And I feel like publishing does not give us nearly enough.

[00:54:04] So I'm always like, let me talk about this

[00:54:07] because I find it interesting and I also feel like so many

[00:54:10] like poor debuts are like thinking that they're doing so bad or like what.

[00:54:14] And it's like, no, most most authors are mid-list authors.

[00:54:17] Most people like it takes 11 books for some people to have

[00:54:20] like a breakout book and like.

[00:54:22] So I am always like every time I have a conversation with someone

[00:54:25] is like, let me give you numbers because this is.

[00:54:28] Yeah. See, we're not numbers people.

[00:54:30] So somebody breaking it down for us like that is so helpful because.

[00:54:34] Yeah, we're like numbers.

[00:54:37] I don't know how to number.

[00:54:38] Yeah, I just want to work.

[00:54:39] I know.

[00:54:40] I am also not a girly in STEM.

[00:54:43] Love y'all.

[00:54:46] Yeah, they're so important.

[00:54:49] But no, truly not me.

[00:54:52] So like, yeah, it fascinates me book of the month.

[00:54:54] I'm so grateful for it because just that alone,

[00:54:56] like watching the metrics change like before my eyes and I'm like,

[00:55:00] oh, like my audience could really grow really wide.

[00:55:03] And that's like a really exciting thing.

[00:55:04] I like to call a book before it comes out like Schrodinger's book.

[00:55:08] It's both it's not a hit, but it's also not not a hit.

[00:55:11] Like, yeah, yeah.

[00:55:12] I don't know.

[00:55:13] Wait, wait, wait.

[00:55:14] This is going to be a hit.

[00:55:15] So yeah, I appreciate it.

[00:55:17] I would love the universe to give that to me.

[00:55:19] So yeah.

[00:55:20] Yeah.

[00:55:20] Well, we are very big manifesters here on the podcast.

[00:55:24] And I would like to point out the things we have manifested have happened.

[00:55:28] So I'm just going to be a New York Times or USA Today best seller.

[00:55:33] I am. Thank you for coming.

[00:55:35] Thank you for putting that energy in the universe.

[00:55:38] It's going to happen.

[00:55:39] I love it.

[00:55:39] And that has happened for some of our guests.

[00:55:42] Yeah, we have on their own like merits and they're all like work.

[00:55:46] But like we had them on like a week or two before.

[00:55:49] And then it happened.

[00:55:50] It's happened far more times than I can remember at this point.

[00:55:53] And I'm like, I mean, we didn't really do anything, but we did.

[00:55:56] Like it's kind of.

[00:55:58] That way.

[00:55:58] It's one of those things where like it's weird.

[00:56:02] You know, if I had a nickel every time this happened, but like it's weird that

[00:56:05] happened like it.

[00:56:07] Like you speak it.

[00:56:08] I'm really big on that too.

[00:56:10] Like I think you read the book, my books, you can tell like there's

[00:56:12] like some sort of like spiritualism in me that I like I just like to put.

[00:56:17] I like to put kindness out and just kind of hope it finds me back.

[00:56:21] Like so I then I don't get my hopes up about things

[00:56:24] because I think that's a really dangerous game to play in this industry.

[00:56:27] It is. Yeah.

[00:56:28] A chaotic industry, but I would love to just sleep.

[00:56:32] So it would be really great.

[00:56:36] Great.

[00:56:38] Things could just do well and then I could just sleep for a little.

[00:56:42] Get some rest for sure.

[00:56:46] Oh man.

[00:56:47] OK, OK, so we have a couple of questions that we ask everybody who

[00:56:50] comes on the podcast, just like fun questions.

[00:56:53] This is going to be where everything that you've ever read or consumed goes

[00:56:57] out your it's gone.

[00:56:58] It's gone.

[00:56:59] So we have a segment on our podcast that we call Fictional Boyfriend of the Week

[00:57:04] where we pick a fictional character that we really resonated with that

[00:57:07] week or that we really love.

[00:57:09] Doesn't have to be a boyfriend or a romantic interest.

[00:57:12] Karen's had a fictional granny.

[00:57:14] I think we've had fictional pets, fictional family.

[00:57:17] Do you have any fictional characters where you're like that is my

[00:57:20] like comfort character that I just want everybody to know?

[00:57:24] Like, like specifically this week.

[00:57:27] No, no, just whatever. All time.

[00:57:30] Yeah. Oh, all time.

[00:57:32] Whatever comes to mind.

[00:57:34] I don't say I'm not going to lie.

[00:57:36] The first thing that did come to my mind and people are going to get

[00:57:40] so tired of me saying this, but it's it's Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle.

[00:57:46] Like every time I am having a mental breakdown,

[00:57:49] I put that movie on because I feel like she grounds me.

[00:57:52] I have her like here.

[00:57:56] I love that.

[00:57:58] See, she is my I just love her and her spirit so much.

[00:58:02] And I think I talk about that movie, like probably 10 times a week

[00:58:06] to the point where my followers on Instagram are probably like if you

[00:58:09] mention this one more time.

[00:58:11] Every time.

[00:58:12] Both final straw.

[00:58:13] Every time I see something Howl's Moving Castle related,

[00:58:17] I'm like, Kaley, have you seen this?

[00:58:18] Kaley, have you seen this?

[00:58:19] And I'm like, I love it.

[00:58:21] I'm so glad.

[00:58:22] No, it's 20 is every time like a viral tweet or something

[00:58:25] happens about Howl's Moving Castle.

[00:58:27] I have at least six people texting me.

[00:58:29] And I'm so glad that I've built that brand for myself.

[00:58:32] Yeah. So sorry, y'all.

[00:58:33] I'm going to say it again.

[00:58:34] But that is that is like my all time like cozy character.

[00:58:38] And I especially bring that up because I turned in my edits for

[00:58:42] I can talk about this now because tomorrow the cover gets revealed.

[00:58:46] But people to Fantasma, I turn in my edits for it on Monday

[00:58:50] and immediately it was like Howl's Moving Castle

[00:58:53] because my brain just needed to like rest.

[00:58:56] So yeah, I love that.

[00:58:58] OK, we have another question that we normally ask,

[00:59:00] but you brought up the sequel to Fantasma.

[00:59:03] I actually I actually was just on Goodreads

[00:59:06] because for the life of me, my brain could not remember

[00:59:09] the name of your first two books.

[00:59:12] I'm not fair.

[00:59:13] I was like, I love them so much.

[00:59:15] But what are their names?

[00:59:17] I have also not talked about them in so long

[00:59:19] because when I'm on like a like a marketing cycle is what I call it.

[00:59:22] I'm just like so exhausted making content for the book

[00:59:25] that's about to come out.

[00:59:26] But I'm so sorry to my other children.

[00:59:28] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:29] Anyways, I went on Goodreads.

[00:59:31] I typed in your name like, oh, yes, those are the name of the books.

[00:59:34] But also there's this book that doesn't have a title,

[00:59:38] doesn't have a cover and it has a name and it sounds like it goes

[00:59:41] with Fantasma. Kaley Kaley.

[00:59:43] Let's talk about it.

[00:59:45] I've like been staring at my phone.

[00:59:47] I'm like, I got it.

[00:59:48] I'll leak a little early.

[00:59:49] So if you like eagle eyed readers have found it,

[00:59:52] which is I mean, always I think kind of fun.

[00:59:55] I have gotten some DMs about it and I have to ignore them

[00:59:58] and I feel really bad. Yeah.

[01:00:00] Yeah. But yeah, so tomorrow we're doing the cover reveal

[01:00:03] and since this will not be going out till after I can tell you.

[01:00:06] So my plans for the world of Fantasma

[01:00:08] because everyone asks is this a standalone and I get it

[01:00:11] because investing in a series is rough.

[01:00:13] But I'm like, Fantasma is a standalone as part of a series

[01:00:16] of interconnected stand alone.

[01:00:18] My favorite romances. Yeah.

[01:00:20] And I got my way.

[01:00:21] And so in Chandra is Genevieve's book

[01:00:25] and I am literally so excited for it.

[01:00:28] The end spell.

[01:00:29] I always I literally I was telling my editor

[01:00:31] like my concept for these first two books, especially

[01:00:35] is sort of like a it's like two sides of the same coin.

[01:00:39] So like Ophelius is very like dark and bloody

[01:00:42] and paranormal horror.

[01:00:45] And then Genevieve's is very like ruthless,

[01:00:47] magic, enchantment, like that sort of vibe.

[01:00:50] So yeah, it's based.

[01:00:53] I got the idea for her game

[01:00:56] because all of them are centered around a deadly sort of game

[01:00:59] from the movie Ready or Not, which is one of my favorite movies

[01:01:02] of all time. It's a horror comedy with Samara weaving.

[01:01:07] If you can stomach horror, I literally love that movie so much.

[01:01:12] But it's like a mix between that and like the whimsy of like Labyrinth

[01:01:16] if anyone's like a fan.

[01:01:18] So so excited for it.

[01:01:20] That is so exciting because I need so much more of Genevieve.

[01:01:25] Like what? I don't like we get her in Fantasma,

[01:01:27] but I need so much more of her.

[01:01:30] Like I'm so excited.

[01:01:32] I love her so much.

[01:01:33] I turned in my first draft of Enchantre a while back

[01:01:36] and my agent texted me was like, Genevieve might be my favorite.

[01:01:39] Like she's pretty.

[01:01:41] She's pretty damn fantastic.

[01:01:43] I mean, yeah, I was saying and it's because she's so chaotic.

[01:01:47] Like that girl cannot.

[01:01:48] It always reminds me of that quote from the Little Mermaid.

[01:01:51] I love Little Mermaid and Sebastian's like someone's got to nail that girl's

[01:01:54] fins down to

[01:01:57] someone has got to like put her in a cage.

[01:02:00] My God, that is so accurate.

[01:02:03] I love that so much.

[01:02:04] Oh, OK, sorry, we're going to get back to our regularly scheduled questions.

[01:02:09] Look, what comes next is one of our questions.

[01:02:12] That is exactly.

[01:02:13] Well, yes, that is usually comes after this next question, though.

[01:02:16] But you know, but it's a bit around.

[01:02:18] So the other question that we always ask our guests

[01:02:21] is we know we love your books and we will be recommending them

[01:02:24] to everybody who has ears.

[01:02:26] But what are you reading?

[01:02:28] What are you recommending?

[01:02:28] What do you think people should keep their eyes on right now?

[01:02:32] So I honestly, when I'm drafting, I'm usually only reading books

[01:02:36] for like blurbing or like books my friends send me.

[01:02:39] So but I just read two incredible books.

[01:02:42] One is Steel from Thieves by MK Lobb.

[01:02:46] It comes out next year.

[01:02:47] It's like a YA heist has like a love of heist.

[01:02:51] Oracle Element 2.2.

[01:02:53] It is so good, y'all.

[01:02:55] Like I feel like it's probably end up.

[01:02:57] It's gonna end up being comp to Six of Crows,

[01:02:59] but it's a little lighter than that.

[01:03:01] And like the main characters are just so freaking funny

[01:03:05] together, like they're very,

[01:03:07] it's very like reluctant allies.

[01:03:09] Love that book.

[01:03:09] I will not shut off about that book.

[01:03:11] And then my friend, Elva Luz has her book coming out

[01:03:16] in January and it is a like YA rom-com

[01:03:19] called Build a Girlfriend.

[01:03:21] And it is the sweetest, funniest, cutest like coming

[01:03:25] of age.

[01:03:27] And so I will also be recommending that to anyone

[01:03:29] who will let me talk to them because it's so good.

[01:03:32] Oh, that sounds fun.

[01:03:34] Those are books to look forward to.

[01:03:36] Yeah.

[01:03:36] We love that.

[01:03:37] Okay.

[01:03:38] So we've talked about what's coming next.

[01:03:40] Do you have anything else?

[01:03:41] I mean, do you have book three coming, right?

[01:03:43] For?

[01:03:44] Yes, I know.

[01:03:44] Everyone's gonna ask me about this.

[01:03:46] I'm gonna have to put so many disclaimers tomorrow

[01:03:48] when we do the cover reveal.

[01:03:49] Like I promise it's still coming.

[01:03:51] Arranging Heart is coming next fall.

[01:03:54] To be honest, it is the chonkiest book I've ever written

[01:03:56] and it's like also a series finale.

[01:03:58] So I'm like naturally, it just took a little longer for sure

[01:04:02] but I got cover sketches this week.

[01:04:04] It's gonna be so good.

[01:04:06] And I can't wait to kind of like end that series

[01:04:10] and it's like my first completed one.

[01:04:13] But Enchanter comes out in April.

[01:04:14] So it comes out before then.

[01:04:16] Oh, that's so exciting though.

[01:04:17] So only a seven month wait for that one.

[01:04:19] And then I do have something in the works

[01:04:22] for after that, that I can't talk about.

[01:04:24] But there will be more from me for sure.

[01:04:27] Yay, exciting.

[01:04:28] This is so exciting.

[01:04:29] Can I, are you allowed to say

[01:04:32] who's gonna be on the cover of Arranging Heart?

[01:04:36] I can't.

[01:04:37] I was like, I mean, that our girl is like.

[01:04:41] Yeah, everyone can speculate.

[01:04:43] I'm pretty good at a poker face.

[01:04:44] You're like, I know nothing.

[01:04:46] I know nothing.

[01:04:48] Okay, well speaking of what comes next,

[01:04:51] this is the part of the interview

[01:04:54] where I do have to tell you, unfortunately for you,

[01:04:56] now that you have been on the podcast,

[01:04:58] you're actually legally obligated

[01:05:00] to come back for all future book releases.

[01:05:02] We don't make the rules.

[01:05:04] I would be honored.

[01:05:05] I love it.

[01:05:06] No, this is so fun.

[01:05:08] Also the vibe, just the incoherent,

[01:05:11] like genius, love that.

[01:05:13] It's, you know, we needed something

[01:05:16] where if we messed up,

[01:05:18] like we just be like, that's on brand.

[01:05:21] We were trying to figure out a name

[01:05:23] because we knew we wanted to do the podcast

[01:05:25] and she's texted me and we're like, I have no idea.

[01:05:27] And I was like, just incoherent fangirl

[01:05:28] or incoherent sounds.

[01:05:30] Yeah, you said incoherent fangirl noises.

[01:05:32] Yeah.

[01:05:33] She was like, many, many.

[01:05:35] We did it.

[01:05:36] Oh, genius.

[01:05:38] No, I love it.

[01:05:39] I know I do a pair line

[01:05:40] because I thanked her for sending out the arc so quick

[01:05:43] because she, she's so skinny.

[01:05:46] Oh my God.

[01:05:47] So I was like thanking her and she's like, oh my God.

[01:05:49] Are you talking about Karen?

[01:05:50] She's sending both unhinged email.

[01:05:52] I love her.

[01:05:53] And I was like, this is so funny.

[01:05:55] I do.

[01:05:56] I sent her the most unhinged emails

[01:05:58] and went, I think the first time I did it,

[01:06:01] she was just like, I will no longer be responding to emails

[01:06:04] unless they are this caliber of unhinged.

[01:06:06] And I'm like, I don't know if I can match

[01:06:09] this exact caliber, but I got you.

[01:06:11] Yeah.

[01:06:11] Because I'm the email and the slush

[01:06:13] that they get every single day.

[01:06:15] It's really so nice.

[01:06:16] My God.

[01:06:17] I love her.

[01:06:18] She's so funny.

[01:06:19] Yeah, she is speedy.

[01:06:22] She's on it.

[01:06:23] She is on it.

[01:06:24] Oh my God.

[01:06:25] Yeah, I saw it.

[01:06:26] You don't even get the email back from her

[01:06:28] before you get like an alert from informed delivery

[01:06:30] that's like a package.

[01:06:31] I think that really did happen.

[01:06:33] Yeah.

[01:06:34] I just saw her at Steamy LitCon and I was talking to her

[01:06:37] and she was like, anytime your name comes up,

[01:06:40] I'm just like, oh yeah, Mandy and Karen, yeah.

[01:06:42] You should talk to them.

[01:06:43] And I'm like, I love this.

[01:06:44] Oh, I love that.

[01:06:45] Oh my God.

[01:06:45] Oh, Steamy LitCon.

[01:06:47] I'm really hoping I get to go next year.

[01:06:49] I, it was like so much fun.

[01:06:51] It was so much fun.

[01:06:52] And if you go, I it will be soon.

[01:06:55] We'll see each other then.

[01:06:56] Well, and it's on Halloween next year.

[01:07:00] I like the vibes.

[01:07:03] The vibes.

[01:07:03] Kaylee, you have to.

[01:07:05] Don't tease me.

[01:07:05] Who do I have to call?

[01:07:08] Yeah.

[01:07:09] Yeah.

[01:07:09] I'm like, I feel like, I mean,

[01:07:11] and you'll have both books out.

[01:07:13] Yeah.

[01:07:13] It's going to be the vibes are going to be there.

[01:07:15] It's going to be Halloween.

[01:07:17] Like, if you're not there, I'm rioting because it's just like,

[01:07:22] they have made a major mistake.

[01:07:24] Major mistake.

[01:07:24] Like, I've always liked how, you know what?

[01:07:27] Stuff kind of just happens to me, which I love.

[01:07:30] Love that for me.

[01:07:31] But like every time someone it's like, oh, how did you like,

[01:07:34] who did you connect with?

[01:07:35] They're like, you know, I like to talk to debuts and like

[01:07:38] support them as much as possible because it's scary.

[01:07:40] And I'm like, y'all, no one.

[01:07:42] I literally just kind of exist.

[01:07:44] And I just get emails sometimes.

[01:07:47] Like, look at the module.

[01:07:47] How did you get that?

[01:07:48] And like, y'all, I am.

[01:07:54] That is so fun.

[01:07:56] I love it.

[01:07:57] I'm just going to cross my fingers and maybe someone will see something

[01:08:01] and be like, oh, she looks like a fun time.

[01:08:03] She should come.

[01:08:03] I love that for you.

[01:08:05] I'm I'm I'm about to like, speaking of unhinged emails, let me go find

[01:08:10] Melinda.

[01:08:10] I was going to say, be okay.

[01:08:11] Karen was a good time.

[01:08:12] I'm just sending an unhinged email for you.

[01:08:15] I will send all the emails.

[01:08:17] I and Mandy will proofread them because I'm very anxious.

[01:08:21] Literally every time before I send an like a professional email,

[01:08:26] I'm like, man, I need to read this Instagram post, whatever.

[01:08:29] Literally anything, anything other than threads.

[01:08:33] I don't usually because I feel like you can just be unhinged.

[01:08:37] And then it's fine.

[01:08:38] But like Instagram posts and emails, I'm always like,

[01:08:40] Mandy, can you read this?

[01:08:42] Please.

[01:08:43] No, I mean, my emails have to go through someone else too.

[01:08:46] Like it does not matter how well I know you because emails

[01:08:49] intimidate me.

[01:08:50] I don't know.

[01:08:51] Yeah, yeah.

[01:08:51] You go on my threads account and it's like, can we bring back

[01:08:54] uncouth as an insult and people are like, what the hell are

[01:08:57] you talking about?

[01:08:58] I saw that and I was like, this is I love this.

[01:09:01] I want that.

[01:09:02] Yes.

[01:09:03] Yes.

[01:09:03] I approve.

[01:09:04] Co-signed.

[01:09:07] Oh my gosh, my cheeks hurt.

[01:09:09] Yeah, my face hurts.

[01:09:11] This has been so much fun, Kaylee.

[01:09:13] I'm so glad we were finally able to get you to come on.

[01:09:16] It worked out perfectly.

[01:09:18] I could talk to you over another hour.

[01:09:20] So it's like, right?

[01:09:22] Yeah, this is one of us.

[01:09:24] One of us.

[01:09:24] One of us.

[01:09:25] Anytime you want to come hang out, it'll be a good time.

[01:09:30] So friends, if you're listening to this, the book is out.

[01:09:34] So this is so walk into a bookstore, pick up Phantasma.

[01:09:38] It's first of all, beautiful cover.

[01:09:39] Gorgeous.

[01:09:40] I just want to stroke her all the time.

[01:09:42] She's so pretty.

[01:09:44] Walking the bookstore, pick it up.

[01:09:45] She is chunky, but it goes by fast.

[01:09:47] It like, I don't know what you did, what kind of crack you put in here.

[01:09:50] But literally, I was like, how am I?

[01:09:52] Why is it the end?

[01:09:54] How did I get to the end?

[01:09:55] I appreciate that.

[01:09:56] That is the highest compliment.

[01:09:58] Like, oh, like a 500 page book, but it didn't feel like that.

[01:10:01] Thank you.

[01:10:02] Literally, I was like, I finished reading.

[01:10:04] I'm like, how is it two thirty in the morning?

[01:10:07] I was like, I was up writing.

[01:10:09] Which I also should not have been awake.

[01:10:11] But like you, my friends always know that you can find me up between

[01:10:14] hours of midnight and five a.m.

[01:10:16] Like at.

[01:10:16] I literally I was like, and I've done this with other authors where

[01:10:21] I'm like live reacting in their DMs.

[01:10:24] And I like most of the time it's like the middle of the night

[01:10:27] because that's just the only time I have to be reading.

[01:10:30] And and you were responding and reacting.

[01:10:32] And I was like, why are you?

[01:10:36] I'm on deadline.

[01:10:38] I'm like, oh, got it.

[01:10:39] I get it.

[01:10:41] Yeah, I was also my my husband just saw me like Tuesday for the first time

[01:10:45] in like a month and he was like, oh, I remember what you look

[01:10:48] I'm like, because literally people do opposite schedules.

[01:10:51] Like I go to bed when he's getting up for work.

[01:10:54] Like, oh, so it's like it's so so funny.

[01:10:58] But yeah, I would you were like live reacting and every time

[01:11:01] I got a little break, I was like on Instagram.

[01:11:04] Like, oh my god.

[01:11:07] I love the magic, magic.

[01:11:10] I love it.

[01:11:10] So it's the perfect book for spooky season and season is basically now, guys.

[01:11:15] So oh, I'm decorating this weekend.

[01:11:17] Yeah.

[01:11:18] Well, you can see my pumpkins.

[01:11:20] I love them.

[01:11:21] I love your whole vibe.

[01:11:23] Yeah, I'm going to say that when you first logged in, like I love all of it.

[01:11:26] It's so funny for like before we really knew each other very well.

[01:11:32] I in my mind, I don't know.

[01:11:34] And I think it's probably partly because of your username,

[01:11:37] but also partly because of your vibe.

[01:11:39] Like in my mind, you were always Kaylee Moon.

[01:11:41] And then I was like, why can't I find her books?

[01:11:44] It's because you're writing the wrong name.

[01:11:47] Yeah.

[01:11:47] Now, you know what is so funny?

[01:11:49] Well, OK, first of all, Smith is like,

[01:11:51] I mean, it's impossible to get a handle for anything with that name.

[01:11:55] And everyone always calls me Kale.

[01:11:57] So I had made that like a long time ago and I just feel like a moon child.

[01:12:02] So it makes sense for my vibe.

[01:12:04] But people ask me all the time, like, is your last name Moon?

[01:12:08] And I'm like, I should have made that my pin name.

[01:12:11] That would have been really cute actually.

[01:12:14] You're like, I really wish.

[01:12:16] But yeah, if I could go back in time and change one thing, you know what?

[01:12:21] But like you so embody the vibe anyways, that it like just honorarily.

[01:12:27] That's just your name.

[01:12:28] Yeah.

[01:12:29] So I don't.

[01:12:31] I love that someone's probably had a bookstore going, God, why is it?

[01:12:35] What is it?

[01:12:36] They said would be here.

[01:12:38] It was me.

[01:12:39] I was that person.

[01:12:40] I was like, wait, I can't find it.

[01:12:43] Go on.

[01:12:43] Go to the albums.

[01:12:44] That's why that's why I'm.

[01:12:47] That is so funny.

[01:12:50] Oh my gosh.

[01:12:51] This has been so much fun.

[01:12:52] I can't my cheeks.

[01:12:54] Thank you so much for hanging out with us, Kaylee.

[01:12:56] This has been an absolute.

[01:12:58] So much fun.

[01:12:59] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:13:00] I really appreciate it.

[01:13:01] And we can't we can't wait for the next.

[01:13:04] And again, y'all, she also has a YA series.

[01:13:07] So go head over and look for that all the books.

[01:13:09] Yeah, by all of us, not Kaylee Moon.

[01:13:11] Yeah.

[01:13:12] Don't be like me.

[01:13:14] Don't be like me.

[01:13:16] Oh my gosh.

[01:13:17] Thank you again.

[01:13:18] We will talk to you soon.

[01:13:20] Bye.

[01:13:20] Bye.

[01:13:23] Time up.

[01:13:24] I love her.

[01:13:25] Oh my God.

[01:13:27] I knew you would.

[01:13:27] I'm like, I just I love her.

[01:13:30] So I want to have a giant face time with her and Hannah

[01:13:33] Nicole Mayer.

[01:13:34] The chaos.

[01:13:35] Imagine how much fun we could have.

[01:13:37] And Christina.

[01:13:38] Christina.

[01:13:39] My gosh.

[01:13:40] That would be so much chaos.

[01:13:42] It would be so amazing.

[01:13:43] Let's get an Airbnb and just have a bestie sleepover.

[01:13:46] I'm in.

[01:13:47] I'm sold.

[01:13:48] I want this to happen.

[01:13:49] Let's do it in like.

[01:13:50] I would love in the middle of the country.

[01:13:53] Somewhere with like fall vibes, like Salem.

[01:13:57] How perfect that would be so perfect, though.

[01:14:00] Like so, so perfect.

[01:14:02] I'm here for that.

[01:14:02] That's what we need to do.

[01:14:03] We need to manifest that we are going to eventually do

[01:14:06] an incoherent fangirl retreat.

[01:14:08] Oh my God.

[01:14:09] How much fun would that be?

[01:14:11] That would be the best time I'm here for it.

[01:14:14] We're putting this into the universe.

[01:14:15] Friends, incoherent fangirl retreat.

[01:14:17] It's going to happen.

[01:14:18] I love it.

[01:14:19] I'm so glad you guys finally got to like meet.

[01:14:22] I know.

[01:14:23] Oh my gosh.

[01:14:24] I love her so much.

[01:14:25] I love her so much.

[01:14:26] Like I am constantly unhinged in her DMs and she just

[01:14:30] rolls with it.

[01:14:31] It's the best.

[01:14:33] Oh my gosh.

[01:14:35] OK, so.

[01:14:36] So, announcement.

[01:14:37] That's burden.

[01:14:38] Something fun to tell you.

[01:14:40] OK, so next week we don't have a doubleheader, but we

[01:14:43] will have.

[01:14:45] It will be fun because we'll have three authors joining us.

[01:14:49] Three.

[01:14:49] And how is that not a doubleheader?

[01:14:51] My friends, it is because we're talking to

[01:14:53] E.B. Asher, author of This Will Be Fun, which.

[01:14:57] Hold you.

[01:14:57] It'll be fun.

[01:14:58] It will be fun, which is the pen name for Emily Weber Lee,

[01:15:02] Austin Seekman Broca and Bridget Morrissey.

[01:15:05] So that's how it is not a doubleheader, but we have three

[01:15:08] authors. It's going to be a good time.

[01:15:10] It's going to be fun.

[01:15:10] Join us.

[01:15:11] I cannot wait.

[01:15:13] And I guess.

[01:15:14] I guess I have a silver spiel.

[01:15:16] Yay. All right, friends, if you enjoy this episode,

[01:15:19] please like, follow and subscribe wherever you are

[01:15:21] listening to us.

[01:15:22] Please also follow us on social media.

[01:15:24] We are at the Incoherent Fan Girl on all the things.

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[01:15:32] read our blog.

[01:15:33] I swear we're we're working on it, guys.

[01:15:36] We're working on it.

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[01:15:58] Adorable.

[01:15:59] A shirt on.

[01:16:00] So cute.

[01:16:01] Head over to the incoherentfangirl.com slash shop

[01:16:04] to make a purchase.

[01:16:05] There's lots of cute stuff that Mandy made.

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[01:16:31] She is at Mandy Perve on all the things.

[01:16:33] She's at Miss Made in China on all the things.

[01:16:35] And once you have followed us on social media

[01:16:37] and you follow the podcast on social media,

[01:16:39] you're going to want to go and do some shopping

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[01:16:46] First stop is here comes the nerd.com

[01:16:48] where you're going to use code fan girl to get 20%

[01:16:50] off your first order.

[01:16:51] Then you are going to head over to

[01:16:53] whowantsuponabookclub.com and get some bookish goodies.

[01:16:56] We have two codes for you to choose from.

[01:16:58] We don't care which one you use.

[01:16:59] We love you no matter what.

[01:17:00] They do not stack, so you'll have to choose between

[01:17:02] Karen 10 or Mandy 10 to get 10% off.

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[01:17:07] or you'll get no percent off and we will judge you.

[01:17:10] Lots of judgment.

[01:17:11] Very judgy.

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[01:17:15] Amber D Lewis.

[01:17:16] You're going to add a ton of everything

[01:17:18] to your cart from amberdellewis.com

[01:17:20] and then you're going to use code fan girl 10

[01:17:22] to get 10% off that 10 of everything.

[01:17:25] And we've now saved you lots of money.

[01:17:27] You're welcome.

[01:17:28] Totally got one of everything free.

[01:17:30] Totally how it works.

[01:17:31] I'm an expert.

[01:17:32] I said it confidently.

[01:17:33] That means it's true.

[01:17:34] You did.

[01:17:35] That was very confident.

[01:17:36] I believed it.

[01:17:38] And then I guess we like the show husband around here.

[01:17:41] I guess we could support the show husband too.

[01:17:43] So you're going to go follow searchers believe

[01:17:47] and the paranormal mind and stream beacon TV everywhere.

[01:17:51] They're on all the social medias.

[01:17:53] So we've got searchers.

[01:17:54] If you go to searchers believe.com slash shop,

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[01:17:58] You'll get 10% off merch also does not

[01:18:01] a lot of merch designed by yours truly over there too.

[01:18:03] And then you can go subscribe to beacon TV,

[01:18:07] which is the new streaming service,

[01:18:09] which has paranormal true crime

[01:18:11] and horror content that everyone's been missing.

[01:18:14] We've got some really cool things in the works.

[01:18:17] So if you subscribe and use code fan girl 10

[01:18:19] at stream beacon TV dot com,

[01:18:21] you will also get 10% off of your subscription

[01:18:23] and you will have support of the show husband who needs support

[01:18:27] because he just saw that his wisdom teeth pulled.

[01:18:29] So yeah, send him a blended cheeseburger

[01:18:32] and subscribe to beacon TV.

[01:18:35] And I guess that was the incoherent

[01:18:38] host there girl.

[01:18:40] We love you.

[01:18:42] We love you.