I Didn’t Write The End

[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Lauren Kang-Jessen. Hi, I'm Kyla Zhao. And you're listening to The Incoherent Fangirl. And you're listening to The Incoherent Fangirl. Welcome to The Incoherent Fangirl, where I'm wearing a Christmas Santa Claus sweater in October, and you'll find out why in a few minutes. To be fair, that's pretty on brand for you regardless. This is true. This is kind of who you are as a person.

[00:00:28] Very true. I got my Halloween phone case, I got my Christmas sweater. I'm just a holiday girlie. You're just missing the best one in between. I'm just saying. I fear that's third for me, between the three. No. Actually, it can be second because I can't pick between the other two, so they're first. Halloween and Christmas are first. Alright, I'm Karen from The Plaza. I'm Mandy of New York at Christmas.

[00:00:58] Welcome back to the podcast, friends. Welcome. In our timeline, it is October 15th, regardless of how festive Mandy is. And in your timeline, it is October 23rd. It's almost Halloween. Crazy. I think for Halloween, I'm going to be my baby niece. Not the baby. The baby, the baby. The baby. But the baby, the seven-year-old.

[00:01:26] I think I'm going to be her for Halloween. I'm not going to tell her. That's going to be so funny. I'm just going to get a bunch of her favorite things and like wear, like I'm going to wear purple because it's her favorite color. I love it. I love it. Yeah. That's going to be great. Amazing. I'll get like a K-pop demon hunter squishy and then just give it to her at the end of the night or something. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. Um, Costco has the gigantic squishmallows. I saw them yesterday. And sussy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I should go.

[00:01:57] When I pick up the show husband from the airport, maybe I should go. They're quite large. Yeah. It's good times. That sound means we have an intruder alert. I'm so excited. Is it an intruder or are you just part of the podcast at this point? I'm coming back. Yeah. This is like, you're just, you're just always here. And we love that. I'm just always here. I'm lurking in the background. We love it.

[00:02:24] And like literally though, like literally. Literally. Literally. Yes. Oh, obviously we have Lauren Kung Jessen back. We're going to talk about the Santa Claus con. I'm so excited. Thank you for always being up for doing this. We love, love, love having you. This is the highlight of my year. Thank you for having me. All right. You know how we start. It's the hardest question we'll ever ask.

[00:02:53] Can you give us the elevator pitch of the book? Yes. The Santa Claus con is an action thriller rom-com about two FBI agents and rivals with history who have to go undercover at New York City's Santa Claus con to stop the event from a bomb threat. It's so good. I love it. I have to tell you this past weekend, I was at a theme park called Santa's Land for my nephew's birthday.

[00:03:20] So it was like a great book to take along. Wow. The perfect timing. That is good timing. Truly. That is good timing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what made you want to write about two FBI rival agents with history at a Santa Claus con? Yeah. Where did the story come from? Yeah. Right. So I was in, I was in New York city two years ago and I was having matcha with my agent

[00:03:47] and I was like, you know, the fortune flip hadn't come out yet. And I think I was on the heels of Yin Yang love song and, or it was about to come out. It was October. So it was the fall in New York and we were about to release Yin Yang. And in passing to her, I was like, I really want to write a holiday. And she's like, oh wait, like what you should do that.

[00:04:10] And I was like, okay, yeah, I really want to, I feel like there aren't a lot of mixed, there aren't a lot of mixed race BIPOC holiday books out there. And we were in October and a lot of books come out in October for Christmas. And I was just feeling the effects of that. I was like, where are the books with people who look like me set during the holidays?

[00:04:35] And so I was even more passionate than ever to kind of like squeeze in something like that. And I didn't have any ideas and she was like, okay, well, let me know what you think when you think of something. And that after that, I bought a notebook, like right after the coffee and I went to go sit down at a cafe and I just started brainstorming. And by like a day later, I had an idea to her and I was like, this is it. This is the idea.

[00:05:04] Like I was thinking about a rom-com, of course, with characters who were mixed. And I was like, what can I do that's a little bit different? Like I had come off of four contemporary rom-coms and I was like, I really am so excited right now about action thrillers and mashing that up with rom-coms. And then I was thinking about action thrillers and my life that I had really gravitated toward.

[00:05:32] And I immediately was like Miss Congeniality. And this is, of course, a holiday. And then I was like, what could it be? Like where it's on a beauty pageant. And then I was like the Santa, like the Santa cause con, but it's a competition. This one's a competition. It's different than the Santa con where, where 50 Santas compete to be Santa of the year. And they have to go through competitions to become the best Santa, essentially.

[00:05:58] And from there, like, I just felt like the vision kind of like wrote itself. Like I was like, this is, I had it all like written down in a synopsis form pretty quickly. So it just kind of like came to me. It definitely was big magic. Oh, sounds like it. It was very fictitious. So, I mean, I will shout all day long, like this is very much a classic Lauren Cungdessen rom-com.

[00:06:25] But you do, like you said, have those action and thriller elements in it. What was kind of the writing process like for that? Like, was it different from how you usually write your rom-coms? Or was there something else you had to do in order to like kind of keep things straight? Weirdly, this was, every, every book has been so different to write. And this one felt like it just poured out of me.

[00:06:53] Like the night before I, like I outlined and I developed it. And I have my like in development phase where I'm like, I'm, I'm researching and I'm reading comps for the types of trope. Like second chance is a big one in this. And I had never written a second chance. I never wanted to, but it felt right for the story. And I'm thinking about the characters and their backstory. So there's a lot of pre-thinking that happens before I sit down to draft. I have my outline.

[00:07:19] But the night before I woke up to draft, because I wrote this entire book from like 6 to 9 a.m. Which now I can't wake up to like do anything. Like I cannot wake up early in there. Like after that, it felt like Christmas morning. I was like giddy. Like I was like Christmas Eve, tomorrow I wake up and I write. Right. And the first, I would say the first 75% of the book like poured out of me. And it wasn't without challenges.

[00:07:45] There were a lot of plot walks and a lot of like thinking about things. But the chapters and the characters and their chemistry and their backstories, like really just this came from a just a fun, joyous place for me, which is what I wanted. I wanted to I wanted to write a book that was just pure fun. I wanted to do that with the fortune flip, but that one kind of became a little heavier than I anticipated. So this one, I was like, this is it. This is my fun book.

[00:08:14] And I didn't write the ending. So for the first time ever, I fast first drafted, which is like my very first fast first draft. I didn't write the end. I was like, I don't know how it ends. I want for a long time. I was like, I don't know for sure how it's going to end. So I stopped at like, I guess, like maybe 80%. And then I started my final first draft and I totally like started editing. And that's when I was like, everything's falling into place here. Now I know what the ending will be.

[00:08:44] I didn't want to spend the time to write the ending when I was like still trying to figure out all the threads and the twists. So that was really different for me. That was a lot of stress to like not have the end. That's really cool though. That's like, it feels, it's so exciting. Like writing any book is so exciting because there are so many possibilities of where the story can go. But how exciting to be editing a book that doesn't have an ending yet. Just knowing it's going to come to you. Like, yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it was. It was good.

[00:09:14] I left a lot of open-endedness. Like I didn't feel tethered to any one person being the sadistic Santa. I didn't feel tethered to like a big thing. Yeah, it's been the hardest to talk about this book because all I want to do is talk about the things. And I'm like, if I even just mention a specific landmark, like that could potentially give something away. Yeah. So what I was going to say was like a total spoiler.

[00:09:42] But everything that happens at the end and the way that this book gets resolved and the story and how it all happens took a lot of time to figure out the how. Like that's been the biggest thing with writing an action thriller is like, how are they going to solve? It's not really, it's a mystery. There's not a dead body, but it is a mystery. And how are they going to find him or her? Like how are they going to find sadistic Santa? And that was really, really tricky.

[00:10:13] Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine writing a thriller. I picture the, is it always Sunny in Philadelphia? The meme of the guy with just like the board and all the strings. And he's just like, ah! I feel like that has to be how it is. Honestly. With writing a thriller. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. The banter in the Santa Claus, Santa Claus, Santa Claus is so good. So do you, does like banter come to you naturally while you're writing?

[00:10:41] Or do you have like a little notes file where like you're just walking down the street and some like in your brain, somebody is like, this is what I'm going to say. And you're like, ah, I don't know where yet, but I'm keeping you for later. Like how does that just come organically while you're writing or? Yeah, both. So once I had a good grasp of Scarlet and Nathan, their banter to me just, again, like kind of poured out.

[00:11:07] A lot of times when I'm like laying in bed, trying to fall asleep, in the shower, brushing my teeth, I will have banter or like people talking in a scene. Like I'll just kind of like, you know, I'm like, that's so Raven when she would like. Yes. I feel like that happens to me when I'm driving and I'm like. Yes. Yes. And you just zone out and you're like, I don't know where I'm going in my brain. I'm like, I'm here. I'm lucid, but I'm also kind of like in the scene.

[00:11:35] Like today I was walking down the street, just kind of like typing out things as they come to me. And when that happens, I'm very much like, ooh, that's a really good feeling and a really good sign. Um, but these characters too, I just think the setting, what Scarlet is making Nathan do, it just lends itself to like just funny, fun, quippy, kind of like sarcastic, um, banter and they have history.

[00:12:03] So there's a little bit of that, which was kind of fun to play with. I think especially with rivals, it's just banter and that next level. Yeah. It's always so good. Because they're not really worried about hurting each other's feelings. Right. So they'll say what they really want to say, which is great for the person who knows like, I know generally how this is going to end for you too. Generally. Okay.

[00:12:31] So we know that you love your research. Can you talk about the research that you had to do for this book? Like I imagine it's a little bit harder when you're talking about researching like the FBI. Yes. And honestly, I, you know, you read stories about people who have done research for books like this and actually have gotten in trouble. And I was like, I genuinely don't want that.

[00:13:01] Like I don't, it's a funny story and it's a fun anecdote, but like, I imagine your life gets very complicated when that happens. And I just was like, I am just trying to write like a wrong, like I'm not trying to actually get on a watch list. Right. So I try to be very careful with what I, what I researched. I mean, I did type in things that I was like, this probably doesn't look good. Would try to follow up with like, I'm writing a book.

[00:13:32] I did do a lot of, you know, I considered like, I did consider talking to try to talk to an FBI agent. But I also, again, did not want to like alert when you're writing about a topic where you're like asking about how things are done. Sometimes it's just better left to fictional imagination. But I really thought getting the lives of the FBI agents was important.

[00:13:58] So I did a lot of memoir reading of FBI agents. That's a good idea. Yeah. Had gone undercover. And I learned so much that way from the way that they speak, from term terminology, from the kinds of missions and how they would run them. Informants. So that was really, really helpful. And there are people who have written about this life, which I just am like, man, what a sacrifice.

[00:14:27] What a crime. And by reading those things, they're just like, it's a world that I don't know anything about. Like I'm not, you know, like I'm not in it. And so just getting into the minds of people who have been and who are was like very, very fun and very different. This is the most escapist book for me to write. I can imagine. Was there any? Yeah. Because you're like, you're like, I need to know a little bit about this world, but like

[00:14:57] I don't want to know what like FBI agents know either because I'll never sleep again. Right. Like from little things like, you know, what the names of guns are, like how she builds a gun. She was the fastest gun builder at Quantico and like what the scariest sound for an FBI agent is, which is like the cock of a gun, because then somebody might have caught onto

[00:15:24] you and using those little moments to make their lives feel real. I really wanted to incorporate a New Year's Eve scene where I'd kind of do that. And just try to drop in terminology, but also kind of build out their past. Like I really wanted to make them feel like they've had texture and experiences in their life with this world. Yeah. And like the Christmas elements of it, New York City didn't require too much research.

[00:15:53] There was a lot of song research. Because I had to write a bunch of riddles and get in the holiday mindset. So I was like, Ooh, what kind of like songs? Yeah. Here. That was so clever. Yeah. Okay. I'm a bit of a psychotic holiday person and it really doesn't matter what holiday if we're celebrating. I'm going to go like all out. So I just wanted to know like, what are some of your favorite holiday traditions?

[00:16:22] And it doesn't have to be like winter holidays, just any holidays. Yeah. Ooh, tricky. Well, for Thanksgiving, we've been doing Peking duck instead of turkey. So that's a different, that's kind of been our thing since COVID. And we were like, we couldn't go celebrate with anybody. Right. Um, I'm going to, I try to make holiday cookies.

[00:16:46] We, we do, we hang up like ribbon garland, um, being in New York, get to like go to the different Christmas markets and see the tree at Rockefeller Center. Um, last year we went to the, what is it? The Rockettes, the spectacular. Oh my gosh. That was incredible. I cannot even imagine. That sounds amazing. There's, it's so techno technological now. So that's incredible.

[00:17:15] And the sets are amazing. And obviously the dancing is like breathtaking. Yeah. It's very, very cool. We're going to be, we're not doing the Rockettes, but we're going to be in New York next month. And I just can't wait just to like Christmas in New York. Yeah. Just to like see it. Yeah. Well, they're opening everything up in October. So like Christmas markets will be ready to go. Like everything will be up. Yeah. It's going to be the weekend before Thanksgiving. So like, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.

[00:17:43] She's coming down with me for just that weekend. Yes. She literally, she's there for maybe like 48 hours. I'm there for Tom Hiddleston. Yeah. Of course. Of course. And Karen. I'm second fiddle to Tom Hiddleston and I know this. It's okay. I feel like my husband would say that. Which again is why. He would not be correct, but he'd probably feel that way. Okay.

[00:18:12] So we had you on earlier this year, which sounds like a dream. Like we get to chat with you two times in one year. You've got two books out this year, which is crazy. So your last book, The Fortune Flip, it hit the USA Today bestseller list. And because I'm obsessed with you and I've followed you since book one, this is the first time you've hit a milestone like this, which obviously congratulations. Super exciting. So exciting. And second of all, like I'm curious, like after hitting a milestone like this, like this

[00:18:42] is something that, you know, authors look forward to, I imagine. Does it feel different? Like, is there any more, do you feel more pressure for while you're working on like your next project? Do you feel like you need to do more of anything? Do you need to do anything differently? Or is everything just kind of like, well, I have a title in front of my name and now I'm going to keep going. Wow. We could actually talk about this for hours.

[00:19:08] It's very nuanced and complex and I have lots of feelings around it. I will say regarding, it's kind of both. Like on one hand, I'm like, my goal was to hit the list with this fortune flip. I was like, the other three books, I was like, I honestly like did not care. I was like, I, that's not why I do this. It's not what I'm, it's just wasn't on the radar.

[00:19:36] Um, but with fortune, I was kind of like, you know what? Let's, let's go. I'm allowed to want that. Yeah. Let's go for it. And I toured and, um, there was a lot of publicity efforts from a couple teams and I posted a ton on social media, um, like every day, maybe twice a day.

[00:19:59] I was just like, I went all out and I, I think I kind of burned myself out on that, in that regard. Um, obviously, you know, I've been burned out before. I wrote a whole book about it. The and young love song is my burnout book. And I kind of feel like that way. And now, I mean, having hit the list, that's very, very kind of you to call out. Thank you.

[00:20:22] Yes, it was very exciting, but I think the misconstruction, like, what is it? Misconstruction? Misconception. Misconception. Misconception. Thank you. It's like words. Yes. Is that it's going to change everything. And I didn't, all, I didn't think it would change anything. I hope that it would help kind of like make it broader and like get more eyes on it. Um, but then you just kind of realize that it's just another milestone and it's amazing. And I'm so happy.

[00:20:52] And now I have that tag and like, you know, I don't really like feel the need to like, if Santa hits cool, I would love that. But also I'm kind of like, if it doesn't, I just wanted to find its readers. It's not why I write. Um, yeah, I don't write to like hit lists because you can't control it. Who even knows how it's curated? Right. Right. Like how many books do you even need to sell? I've heard so many numbers.

[00:21:19] Um, and it does feel very arbitrary most of the time. It's so, it feels like whose desk did it hit? Right. Right. At the same time. Like, I don't, I don't know. I mean, it's very arbitrary. Yeah. But I do feel, I think I do. Santa has, um, been well received. And I think I do feel that pressure of, um, I think I am starting to feel that pressure a little bit. I'm like making another good book.

[00:21:49] Oh, you've never written a bad book. I mean, you've never made a bad book. I think you're fine. That was a softball. Thank you. You both did it. Thanks. Um, okay. We want to keep you forever, but we always have to cut you loose. We have to let you go. You have to have a life. But first, we have to go through our, for our always questions. Yes. So, fictional boyfriend of the week.

[00:22:17] Do you have any fictional characters this time that you're like, everybody should know that character? I, so I read The Holiday House Swap by Lauren Applebaum. I don't know if you've read that yet. Yeah, it's on my list. Yeah, it's out next week, um, the 20th. And I just, I loved that one by Lauren. That's my favorite of hers. It was so cozy. It's basically like The Holiday movie, um, which is like- Sold. Yeah, sold.

[00:22:46] There are these two great guys in it, Jonathan and Sam. And it takes place in Seattle and Florida. And they're just really great guys. And I just loved the dynamic between them and, um, the two ladies. So, it's very, very cozy. Like, I was laughing. I was swooning. It's very, it's added to your TBR. Oh, yeah. For sure. Especially in the next- Yeah. Yeah. Two months, month and a half. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

[00:23:15] Perfect timing. Especially if it's like The Holiday. Oh, I love it. Yeah. Yes. No, honestly. All right. So, you kind of answered this already. But is there anything else, like, you're reading right now that you really want to recommend? Or you've read recently that you want to recommend? Yeah. I just finished reading Aftertaste by Daria Lavelle.

[00:23:38] And it's about, okay, it's about this guy, the chef, who can taste the meals of the deceased, of the dead. And he opens a restaurant to help people find closure. So, they have that meal with the one, the ghost, essentially. Oh, my gosh. It's so great. Like, it's so great. That's such a cool idea. Yeah, it's really cool idea.

[00:24:07] And of course, it's a food book. It's food, it's ghosts, and there's a love story. It's not a romance in the sense of what we expect from romances. So, this is not a romance wreck. But it's great. Like, it'll be one of my favorites of the year. Oh, man. That sounds really cool. It does sound really good. Yeah. Okay. Last but not least, what comes next?

[00:24:37] Without putting too much pressure on you. No, this one I can answer. Because we did a cover reveal last week, but I have a writing workbook called How to Write a Romance. And Karen Baderad and gave such amazing feedback, made the book so much better. It's a workbook for people who want to write their own romance novel.

[00:24:57] And it takes you through how to develop characters, how to plot, how to think about social media and querying and what the publishing business kind of looks like. Just a little glimpse. And then there's writing tips and kind of like insights into how to actually get the book written. So, that comes out in June of 2027. That is so exciting.

[00:25:27] And it's so, it is, you guys, it's so, like, hands-on and interactive. And the way that, like, Lauren writes these metaphors of, like, what writing is to, like, she talks about, like, planting a seed and then growing your garden. And it's so, it's, like, wildly inspiring. Like, as I was going through the workbook, I was like, okay, I have to stop because I have to go write. Yeah, this is how I apply it. It was, yeah.

[00:25:56] And it is, it is, it very much is, like, you can take it at your own speed and apply it, like, as you're working through it as well. So, it's not just, like, it's not like a typical craft book where you, like, read and you get all these tips and tricks. And then you, like, go and write. Like, you could do it concurrently as you're writing something. And I thought it was so much fun. And I'm really excited to see all the finished bits and pieces.

[00:26:22] Karen's coming with me in every interview because we just went to the movie. Sold. Like, don't threaten her with a good time. Don't threaten me with a good time. Yeah. Yes. Oh, well, that's so exciting. But in the meantime, this episode is coming out before. So, you guys still have time to pre-order the Santa Claus Con. Lots of pre-order goodies from. There's so many options. Yeah.

[00:26:49] So, go look up Lauren on Instagram. She has it linked to the stores that you can order from to get pre-order goodies. And you should because it's fantastic and it's super fun. And Liz, I laughed so much. It was such a fun time. I know. Getting those live reactions was everything. It was so much fun this time. Like, especially this time. I think it's because it was, like you said, this was your fun book.

[00:27:20] Yeah. And so, it was just, it was all just fun. And especially with the way that, like, I need you guys to understand with the way that my brain works, it works in such a bookish way that if I applied everything that I was thinking and theorizing to real life, I would be dead within, like, two minutes. Or you'd be... I was like, well... You'd be an amazing FBI agent, probably. No, because I was like, no, no, no. This person's incredibly suspicious. They're not guilty.

[00:27:48] Like, that's how my brain works. I was like, no, that's not how real life works, okay? If they're suspicious, then they're probably guilty. But in a book, if they're suspicious, I don't know. I kind of trust them. The step in between is due diligence to figure out if it's true. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I don't know if I could do the investigating part. But I could actively be like, no, they're probably fine. They're too suspicious.

[00:28:18] Yeah, they're good. They're good. They're off the list. They're totally being framed, actually. Yeah. It was definitely a lot of fun. And it's one of my favorite traditions that we do every year. And my favorite. I read Lauren's books and I send her live reactions. And this has been happening since Lunar Love. Since before, like, we knew each other, really. So that was her first introduction to me was just unhinged messages. Unhinged, Karen.

[00:28:48] I still remember the day I got your message for the first time, like where I was standing. Because you were like, you were so excited. And like, obviously Lunar Love was my first, was the debut. And I was just like, oh my god, she's so excited. She's so exciting. I was so excited. And like, I don't know if I told you, but it was like, I found Lunar Love completely by it. I didn't find it. Somebody sent it to me.

[00:29:13] Like somebody sent me the, because Forever does prioritized reviewers. So somebody had sent me the link for that form to fill out. And they're like, I think you would really like this. And I looked at it and I'm like, yes, immediately give it to me. And it was the first ever, like, arc that a publisher had given me. Like, and like the first ever physical arc that I had received from a publisher. And it was like something that I was so excited about.

[00:29:42] And then you were like, completely welcoming to my insanity. So here we are several years later. No, truly. Book five. Still doing the same thing. That is so special. Yeah, I love it. So everybody go. I mean, listen, you can't go wrong with a Lauren King Jessen book. No, you cannot. All of them are fantastic. So go pre-order the Santa Claus Con now.

[00:30:07] And if you feel like it, she's got four other books in her backlist that you could order right now and pick up immediately. Which one is it that just came out in large print? Red String Theory, was it? The Fortune Flip has a large print. Fortune Flip, that's what it is. Which is crazy. Yeah, very cool. That's so... It's the only one that has a large print. That's so fun, though. Is it gigantic? It's gigantic. It's so thick. And the words are so big. It's amazing.

[00:30:35] I am so excited to get a copy of the mail. Because obviously... Oh, I know. I can't. The PSA is for you, Karen. I've got to add it. It's going to take up like two book widths. I'm ready. I'm ready. Oh, no. I'm ready. We've got plenty of room on the shelf. It's fine. Okay, good. Good. All right. Thank you, Lauren, for always being so amazing for doing this every time. We'll have to bring you back for the workbook.

[00:31:04] You know the rules. Every release. And I'll have questions for you about it, too. Oh, there you go. Oh, no. I'm not ready. Oh, no. Oh, no. Thread me with a good time. I'm not supposed to... I'm the asker of questions. Yeah. I might be on the other side. Dang it. Darn. All right. Thank you so much. We will see you soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.

[00:31:32] I love her so much. This little rat has been here half this time. That's okay. Just looking crazy in my lap. I know. I love her so much. I love her so much. She's the best. She's amazing. She always has such thoughtful answers. She's so freaking pretty. I know. It's so rude. Yeah. I can't believe we're all going to be in, like, the same fucking city for the first time. I know. Ever. That's going to be really exciting. I know. Yay.

[00:32:02] That's pretty cool. That sound means we have another intruder alert. I'm so excited. I feel like I've been waiting for this for years. I know. We have Kyla Zhao. We're talking about Heirs of Infamy. Hello. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for being here. I know it was like a journey for us to get here, and we're so excited to do this. All right.

[00:32:30] So the first question that we always ask, we joke, it's like the hardest question we're going to ask this whole interview, is can you give us the elevator pitch of the book? Okay. So Heirs of Infamy is set in 1940's San Francisco Chinatown, and it features two rivals from different gangs who must team up for a high-stakes heist to steal a massive fortune. And along the way, obviously, unexpected feelings arise, so they have to navigate their blood dynamic

[00:32:59] and loyalty and rivalry. You're so good at it. I love it. I know. It was like... That was actually the first time I've been asked to give an elevator pitch, so I was like scrambling through the thing. Oh, you did great. That was scrambling. Oh my gosh. That was fantastic. So where did the story come from, and what inspired you to write it? Yeah. So the story came from a random trip I took to Las Vegas in 2023. It was Memorial Day weekend. It was really hot.

[00:33:28] But this was at the end of a weekend trip. So by the time, I was completely maxed out on Las Vegas. But I came across this Reddit recommendation for the Mob Museum. And I thought... I was like, okay, cool. No one has actually told me to do that in Las Vegas yet. So let me go check out this hidden gem. And so I go to the Mob Museum. And when you walk in, the first thing you see is this massive long wall. And there are like 40 portraits hanging on it, showing the most famous mafia mobsters

[00:33:57] from American history. This is so cool. And almost all of the portraits were of a man. I think there was only one woman. And she was famous for being the mistress of the men hanging on the wall next to her. And so it just got me thinking, you know, this is such a deeply patriarchal male-dominated society. What it would be like to be a woman. And not just a woman, but like a young teenage girl. Like, you know, coming of age, trying to find her place.

[00:34:24] Like, I think being a teenage girl in any time and place is really so hard. And so challenging in its own way. But then you throw in the idea of being the daughter of a mob boss. And all the, you know, the racial and class and gender dynamics of the 1940s. And I feel like that just takes coming of age to a whole new level. And so that idea just kind of sank into my head. But I didn't really think of writing a book out of it. Because I was releasing one book in 2023 and two books in 2024.

[00:34:53] So that kept me plenty occupied. And I think it was only a year later that I was like, oh, you know, I feel like there's something here that could actually make a good story. So it took one year from that initial visit to the Mott Museum for me to think, oh, I think this could actually be like a good book. That's wild. That's so cool. That's wild to go there. That is so cool. You guys can go check it out. Yeah. I hate that it's just one woman who was a mistress. Yeah. That's crazy. Oh. This isn't one of the questions that I wrote down.

[00:35:23] But now that you've said that, I'm really like wondering. Like you, all of your books are very much like there are women who are like very strong in who they are and confident in who they are, but in male dominated fields. Is this something like, obviously, that's something that's very important to you to write about, especially as somebody who is also a woman in a male dominated field. How do you like, how do you navigate that when you're writing?

[00:35:50] Because obviously, the society that we're living in is really bleh. And so to kind of build the world that you're building, are you drawing from real life? Are you trying to make it more like escapist in a way? I think I always try to capture very real emotions and very real feelings. I do tend to, you know, draw from my own experiences to draw from the experiences of those around me or from personal observations.

[00:36:16] There's also definitely, you know, fictional liberties that I take as well, because at the end of the day, I think when we write stories, it is partly to educate, but it is also a lot of it is to entertain. So as an author, that is always the balance I want to strike. But yeah, it's interesting that you pointed out this commonality across all my books, because on one hand, like, yes, this is such a strong, like true line across all of my books. But on the other hand, they're also set in such different contexts. Like, you know, Valley Verified is set in Silicon Valley.

[00:36:46] The tech startup scene, May the Best Play of Win is set in the world of competitive chess. This is set in the world of Chinatown organized crime. And also these books span different age groups. So you have one that is an adult novel, one that is of this young middle school girl, and one that is of this like teenage girl who's on the cusp of adulthood. And I think the way they think of gender dynamics of their place, and of making their own mark

[00:37:13] on the world is also very different as well, because they come at it with different contexts and with different perceptions of what is and isn't available or possible for them. True. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that like, it's set in a different time, obviously, it's set in like the 40s. What research if like, if any, did you have to do to make sure that you stayed like time accurate? I mean, I know you're not gonna put a cell phone in there.

[00:37:41] But like, what did you do to make sure you stayed? I love this question, because I'm such a geek. And honestly, doing the research of this book was really, really fun for me. Like, I would just end up in the most random rabbit holes. And I'll just be like, googling things. And then I'll be like, wait, hold on a second. Like, Tyler, you're not gonna put any of this in your book. Like, you're doing this purely out of like interest now. Like, stay focused. I did a lot of research into the technologies and the products that were available at the time.

[00:38:09] And I really enjoyed dropping these Easter eggs throughout the book. So, you know, I think there was one scene where the characters were like, oh, they just discovered this new material called polyester. And obviously for us now, polyester is so common. But back in 1949, it was like a very, very revolutionary invention at a time. It hasn't even caught on publicly yet. Like, maybe only a very small group of people would even have heard about it. And also the concept of hairspray.

[00:38:36] So hairspray wasn't publicly or widely available at a time. So again, it was just like keeping track of all these things and being like, okay, what would have been available? And also what would have been not available, but potentially known to a small group of people or what would have been available and also widely known to a large group of people were all things I had to keep track of. And I also love doing research into the slang and vernacular of that time because I really wanted to get the dialogue like as bright as I could.

[00:39:06] So for example, people back then wouldn't really use the word like nerd or geek. They would say dweeb. They wouldn't call it a refrigerator. They would call it an icebox. And so it was already fun. I wanted to get correct. And also I think Chinatown is such a fascinating setting. So I really wanted to get that location, that geographical immersion right. You know, the clothes, the food, what they were eating at a time.

[00:39:32] I wanted to get it as accurate as I could without, you know, being too pedantic about it. But for example, like people commonly associate dumplings with Chinese cuisine. But back then, a lot of immigrants in San Francisco Chinatown came from southern China, where dumplings wasn't really a staple of their cuisine. So dumplings were actually not very popular in San Francisco Chinatown then. And so that was all the little details that I wanted to capture.

[00:40:00] And I wanted to be as faithful to the era as much as possible. But at the same time, again, like I think one of my main jobs as an author is to entertain and deliver a good story. So I can balance that. Oh, that's so I'm the same way. I love a rabbit hole where it's like, I'm not I'm going to know this and that's it. Right. It's so cool. I spent the whole time thinking like, how much time did we spend in San Francisco Chinatown eating food?

[00:40:28] Because I know how close we are to it. Because that would have been me. I would have been like, I'm I'm having dinsum in Chinatown and this is research. Exactly. It's a write-off. Okay, so you said something interesting about the language of the time. And I was thinking about that in terms of like, you chose to use some Chinese in the book,

[00:40:55] which obviously is very accurate to like how immigrants speak. You know, we switch between one or the other often. But I thought it was an interesting choice for you to use the Chinese characters instead of like most of the because most of the time when I see it, it's like the Romanized alphabet. Yeah. So was that was that an active choice you made? And what was kind of the decision behind that to you to incorporate the Chinese characters into the writing? Yeah.

[00:41:21] And actually, on that, I did take a bit of creative liberty because at a time, like I speak Mandarin Chinese. That's the dialect that I was raised on. But back then, like I said, because most of them came from southern China, the more common dialect would actually have been Cantonese, which I don't speak. And, you know, I think I did include an author's note at the very start of the book explaining this creative choice. And so it's really because like when I was young, my dad would tell me, you know, all these Chinese idioms. And he is a huge like history buff.

[00:41:51] And I think that's how I developed my love for history and my love for historical fiction. And so I think in a way, these Chinese idioms, which I grew up hearing from him, they're like a little homage to him and to our shared love of history. And so if I were to be like completely 100% accurate, it would not have been Mandarin Chinese idioms. There will probably have been some Cantonese phrase. But I think I did want to keep that in Mandarin Chinese, just as like a little estate between me and my dad.

[00:42:18] And, you know, on this topic of creative liberties, I think another big liberty I took was actually with my character's name, Alexis and Zachary. I think I did have concerns about, you know, like they're obviously not very common to the Chinese American population at a time. They were not common names for the 1940s. But for some reason, when I thought of the story, the two names just like sprang into my head and they would not let go of me.

[00:42:45] I feel like they sung their claws into me so early on that even when I tried to think of other names, I just could not see my characters as anything but Alexis and Zachary. So I think that is one of the other creative liberties that I allowed myself as the author. I love that. You're the boss. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. Or you don't get to decide. Your characters get to decide. And they tell you. And they're like, this is our name. Yeah, I'm like a prophet for them.

[00:43:14] So I took a peek at your website and you're a Forbes 30 under 30 honor. How did that come about? And what does that feel like? I will say I actually don't think about it except once in a while when people are like, oh, your pops 30, I'm 30. I'm like, oh, yeah, huh, that did happen. But well, you know, I turned 30 in like two years. So I think at some point I have to just like remove it from all my websites and stuff. No, you still got it. You still earned it. Thank you.

[00:43:44] But yeah, like I think it's definitely an honor and recognition that means a lot. But I think just like on a day to day basis, the reactions and responses I get from readers mean so much more and like way more personal way when you say like, oh, I really connected with this character or oh, it felt like this book really spoke to me. It kind of captured what I went through personally in my life. I'm like, wow, like stories are so powerful. Like it allows people who never meet each other in real life to feel so seen and connected on a personal level.

[00:44:13] And so I think that is always the best kind of recognition that I can get as an author. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it is still very cool. All right. So this is your first YA novel. You're one, two, three, four, four books in. I'm like, hold on, let me count. So this is but this is your first one. But you debuted in adults. You've written middle grade. You're you're kind of all over the place, which I love.

[00:44:41] But can you kind of talk about how you figure out like what's the right age range? What's the right audience for the stories that you're writing? Does it come first or does it kind of reveal itself as you're discovering the plot, the characters, everything else? Yeah, I think it really starts with the character. I think my story always begins with the silhouette of my main character in my mind. And from there, based on her likes and dislikes and her dreams and her fears and her hopes,

[00:45:10] I almost craft the story around her. And so once I have an idea of who my main character is, I think the age group of the story becomes like a lot clearer. You know, it also depends on what are the teams I want to explore. So for example, in Valley Verified, I really want to explore the idea of, you know, like, how do you balance passion versus doing the right thing versus money when you're like working in the corporate world? And so that feels like very much like an adult book to me.

[00:45:39] And then for middle grade, you know, like I think struggling with the idea of how do I keep my passion for something when winning becomes very important? I think a lot of kids confront that when they get to a certain age. And so I know I wanted that to be a middle grade book. And then for this, I just, I can't even really verbalize a rationale for why it felt like it had to be a young adult or why my main character felt like she has to be a teenager.

[00:46:05] Like I can definitely see alternate paths I could have taken where she could have been an adult. I don't think she could have been a middle grader, that's for sure. But I could have seen an adult version of Eris of Infamy. But I almost feel like her being a teenager just feels so right for me. Like I think, you know, the very big emotions you feel as a teenager, it somehow amplifies very well the context of the situation that she was born into.

[00:46:34] That's a great answer. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Okay, so we promised that we wouldn't keep you forever, even though we want to. But we do have a few questions that we always ask our authors. The first one is going to be where like every book, movie, anything that you've ever consumed, you're like, I don't know what a movie is. Yeah. Um, we have a segment on the podcast that we call fictional boyfriend of the week.

[00:47:03] It doesn't have to be a boyfriend, which is what we call it. But like, Karen's had a fictional granny. I've had a fictional son. We've got fictional pets. Yeah. Do you have any fictional characters from books, movies, TV, video games where you're like, everybody should know this character? That's my favorite. I love him. Her. Them. Oh my gosh, huh? This is so hard. Um, okay, not real. Like, I don't really think of it as like a fictional anything to me. But you guys know the book series? I think it's middle grade.

[00:47:31] It's called The Click by Lissy Harrison. It's like, no, but my daughter's read that one. Okay. Yeah. So there's like this main character who's like really sassy and snarky. And she and she's like, honestly, a little bit mean, but she just delivers everything in such like a snarky way that she's almost like funny. Yeah. So you almost can't help but like her. And once in a while, I'll get like her voice in my head. Um, yeah. Like, like, like, just like a really snarky thing of like a snarky 13 year old girl. Like, I love it.

[00:48:01] Yeah. So she's like in my head sometimes. No, we all need a snarky 13 year old in our head. Because they're not scared of anything. I'm scared of anything. They're not. Like, I'm pretty dumb. I got a snarky 11 year old living in my house. She's basically the same thing. Basically the same thing. We got it. All right. So kind of along the same lines ish. Um, we obviously, you know, I love your books. I'm obsessed with you.

[00:48:29] Um, but we would love to know, like, what are you reading? What are you recommending? Is there anything that you just like think everybody needs to dive into this? Oh, wow. Um, you know, I'm really getting into like the holiday, like the fall vibes. I think everyone, like one way to get yourself into the cozy fall atmosphere is really just surround yourself with cozy fall content. Yeah. So I always recommend like, like go watch the Hallmark movies, even if they're corny. Go watch like the Netflix holiday dom-coms.

[00:48:59] Like, yes, maybe some of them are like weird or they don't make sense. I would never be realistic. But like, who cares? We don't watch it. Right. Yeah. That's the point. We watch it to escape. Um, yeah. So I would say go for that. And you know, one movie that I want to check out is actually Hocus Pocus, which I know is such a classic, but which I still have not watched. So I'm like, oh, it's time this year for me to check out Hocus Pocus. Oh, I think that'll be so fun. I think you're really going to enjoy it.

[00:49:25] I just watched Practical Magic 2 yesterday and it was so good. Okay. Controversial, but I liked it better than the first one. Interesting. I don't think the sequels are very good reviews, but okay. I feel like now I really liked it. I feel like I should at least give it a shot. Yeah, I liked it. That was a bad. Okay. Last question. What comes next from you? What comes next?

[00:49:52] I am so sad to say that I've not been writing at all this year just because work has been killing me. And I just have not had emotional bandwidth to be like, well, maybe that's kind of a cop-out answer. But I think I just have not had the mental energy to be able to sit down in front of my laptop and think of fresh stories. No, that's so fair though. So I don't really know what comes next. I think that whatever comes next will probably be very different from Eras of Infamy.

[00:50:22] I think, again, if you look at my track record, every book has kind of jumped from place to place to place. It's a little bit all over the map. I think I frustrate my publisher and my publicist because it makes it a lot harder to market me. I can't really be put into a swim lane. You know, it's like, Kyla, she writes about Silicon Valley, but she also writes about gangs and people who kill one another. How do you reconcile that? No, I think that's kind of fun though. It is fun. She can do anything.

[00:50:49] Yeah, well, I think it's great when an author has like, you know, you have romance authors and you have fantasy authors, but it's also kind of fun to just have like, not be quote unquote pigeonholed into a niche kind of thing. Like, that's what I really love about like all your books. You kind of just do whatever you feel like. Yeah. It works. Yeah. So I think for the next one, I really do want to try a new genre. Like maybe it'll be fantasy. Maybe it'll be thriller.

[00:51:16] Maybe it will be like a rom-com, but it just will be very different from Errors of Infamy, I think. And, you know, like Errors of Infamy was born out of a lot of love. I did a lot of research into organized crime, into Chinatown, into Asian Americans in 1940s, into the 1940s, just out of pure love for the story that I was writing. But frankly, I don't think I can go through that amount of research again for another book. So I think the next one like will not be historical fiction.

[00:51:45] It will not require me to do any homework. It would just be like pure vibes. That'll be great. I love it. Well, when that time comes, we do have some bad news for you. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. The rule is that now that you've been on the podcast, you're actually legally obligated to come back for all future book releases. That sounds like the most amazing news. So I'm afraid I'll have to fight for a spot on your podcast next time. So it's good to know that I'm guaranteed. No, you're actually required to come back.

[00:52:13] You might not have noticed. Like you did sign in blood. So sorry. Okay. I think I need to read the terms and conditions. It's just really little. We don't want to have to send our mobsters after you. Yeah. You know. I'm like best friends with all the local mobsters now. Like I've met with several of them to do like primary research for this book. Because honestly, if you live near San Francisco Chinatown, it feels like everyone knows someone who knows a gang member. Yeah.

[00:52:43] Yeah. So. Yeah. That's so good. Well, okay. We're not going to threaten you then. Okay. But like you should still come back. You still have to come back. I will. I will. No transfer point. Amazing. All right. Well, Ares of Infamy is out now. You guys can go into a store and pick up a copy. Look at it. This cover is stunning. Are you joking? I'm obsessed. Like. I'm obsessed with it. I think this is beautiful. I'm really happy with what my publisher does. I love all of your covers, but this might be the best one yet.

[00:53:12] Because. I know. I've been very lucky. You've been really lucky, but that one is so good. So everybody go pick up a copy of Ares of Infamy. If you feel kind of cheeky, you can go pick up stuff from her backlist as well. That's all available as well. Also excellent. Thank you so much, Kyla, for going on this journey and getting to the podcast. I'm so glad we made this happen. Yay. Yes. And then we will talk soon. Okay. We will. All right. I'm very ominous.

[00:53:42] I know. I'm like. Well, I'll see you on Saturday. So. Yeah. Okay. We literally will talk soon. Yeah. All right. Well, have a good day. Thank you so much. Bye. Safe travels. Getting home. I'm going back to work now. This was a very nice break. All right. Bye. Oh, I love her so much. She's the best. We finally got to talk to Kyla. I am so happy. Like, truly, I have been just waiting.

[00:54:10] I'm like, when is the time going to line up? And we finally made it work. She's so precious. Even through a business trip. I know. Oh, she. We did it. She is. She is just so wildly impressive to me. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Like, because she's, first of all, she's so young, which is in and of itself. I'm like, when young people do things, I'm wildly impressed, first of all, because I'm old and lazy.

[00:54:37] But like, she, you know, English isn't her first language. And she's written four excellent freaking books. She has a Forbes 30 under 30. She works in the tech industry. Like, I'm sorry. I'm just wildly impressed by her. So she's, I'm so glad that we finally got to like chat with her on the podcast. Absolutely. Yay. Oh, my face hurts after such good interviews. I know. What a day. What a day. Okay.

[00:55:05] So time for an announcement. Yes. You guys, it's time for the candy awards. I got so confused because I was like, wait, are we interviewing someone and doing the candies? But we're not. We're not. We're just backwards. I was like, I don't have a book. You're not supposed to because we're doing the candy awards. Oh, my God. Can you believe it? Like our season. This year has gone by so freaking fast. Truly.

[00:55:36] I'm very confused. Like, it is based. It's basically the end of it's basically Halloween. Yeah. Like, how did we get here so fast? Because I'm pretty sure we just had the new year. Yeah. I think not to bring down the vibe, but I think it's because all my dogs died. And so it was just like loss, loss, loss. Loser. Just back to back.

[00:56:04] I feel like this year has just really gone by. Wait. But speaking of which, this is the stupidest transition. But speaking of which, it's been a year since living in the dead. My baby. It's been a year. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that wild? This is when you're old. I took, I got cupcakes for it and posted a video. Yes, you did.

[00:56:30] And then the show husband is all over the country for the rest of the month. But he was like, before he left, he was like, I need a copy of your book that's like not his autographed copy that he took. Right. In case he like, ADHD. In case he loses it or whatever. Right, right, right. And he was like, I'm going to all these places and I want to take pictures of it everywhere I go. Look at that man. What a green flag man. I think I'll keep him. Yeah, I guess he's pretty cool. Yeah. A whole year of Abby and Ryden.

[00:57:00] I can't believe it. All right. So next week we will be having our annual awards episode. And then you'll never see this face again for the rest of the year. Just kidding. I mean, yes, but no. We might have a surprise up our sleeves. Maybe. Maybe just something. Just a little something. But yay. We're excited.

[00:57:30] It'll be good. It'll be stressful because I don't have notes from the whole year. So we'll see how it goes. I do. I know. I know you do. Keep a spreadsheet. I can't believe you don't. You know what? I had it in my notes app. And then it wasn't in my notes app. RIP. So, you know, we're doing great. It's awful. It's fine. I'll be really great for next year. I'll be perfect for next year. This is true. It's going to be great. All right. You got this. All right.

[00:58:00] I guess it's now time for a spiel. That's where we're at. Okay. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, follow, and subscribe wherever you are listening to us. Follow us on social media at The Incoherent Fangirl on all the things. Visit our website, TheIncoherentFangirl.com, where you can also stream all of our episodes as well as read our blog. Subscribe to our Patreon for early access to podcast episodes, full video episodes, bonus content, and the opportunity to ask questions of our guests. I'll probably post a list of the guests we've already booked for next year soon.

[00:58:28] So, you can start thinking that over, percolating, getting excited, because I'm excited. It's going to be fun. If you are a merch girl, you can head over and visit our merch store, TheIncoherentFangirl.com slash shop to grab some cute merch designed by Mandy, because sometimes she gets bored with an iPad. And, ooh, we all benefit. I got so excited. I hit my microphone multiple times. She started throwing fists. So sorry. Yeah. That's a weird sound. I apologize.

[00:58:59] But you should go look at the merch. It's cute stuff. Yes. And if you have any comments, questions, concerns, suggestions, design ideas, or you just want to tell us that we're pretty, we will take all of that in our inbox, TheIncoherentFangirl at gmail.com. You know we love hearing from you. And, of course, one last way to support the podcast is to rate and review on whatever platform you're listening to us on. Give us your words. You know we love words. We love words. She is at Mandy Perv on all the things.

[00:59:29] She's at Miss Made in China on all the things. And once you follow us on social media and you follow the podcast on social media, you can head over and visit our internet besties and do some self-care because we love you and we want you to stick around forever and ever and ever and ever. Also, it's the season of giving. Right. So you can get your gifties now. Give to yourself. Give to yourself. Or your friends. Give to those you love. Give to strangers on the street. Be cheerful. Be happy. It's a good time. All right.

[00:59:59] First up, you're going to visit our friends over at Here Comes the Nerd at HereComesTheNerd.com. Get you some cute pins and artsy goodies. And you're going to use code fangirl and you'll get 20% off your first order. Then you're going to head to OnceUponABookClub.com. OnceUponABookClub.com. You can subscribe. You can get some standalone goodies. Maybe a standalone box. Like I don't know the 12 Days of Book Clubmas Advent box with a story from yours truly.

[01:00:29] And you'll use code Karen10 and you'll get 10% off at checkout. But you have to spell Karen right or Santa's not bringing you shit this year. Oh, no. I actually need Santa to bring me stuff. Okay. So I'm going to be good. Spell Karen right. Or my own name right. And then you're going to visit our friend Amber D. Lewis at AmberDLewis.com.

[01:00:54] Again, you can add 10 of everything to your cart and then use code fangirl10 and you'll get 10% off the 10 of everything. Which means mathematically you've gotten one of everything for free. So you've gotten something for yourself. And you've got your gifts all picked out for all of your friends. Because there's a lot going on there. So you should go do that. Okay. It's a good time. So last but not least, you can support my family. You can follow the show Husband. He's at Born of Josh on all the things.

[01:01:24] Follow at Searchers Believe. It's his paranormal investigation group. If you go to searchersbelieve.com slash shop and use code fangirl10, you'll get 10% off. Then the big one is you'll want to follow Beacon TV. It's our paranormal true crime horror streaming platform. By the time you're hearing this, it is almost time for Amy Bruni and Adam Berry's new show. It followed me home.

[01:01:52] We've got Cursed Waters coming and some really cool things coming at the beginning of next month. Or not next month. Next year. So that's at Stream Beacon TV on all the things. And if you'd like to subscribe, you can use code fangirl10 to get 10% off of your subscription. And it's already super cheap. Yes, it is. So there's that. And then I wrote a little something. It's called The Living and the Dead. It's one year old.

[01:02:17] It's about a girl who was born a ghost but ages like the living and the reaper who would die to get her to look at him. Just a little look. And he's a little yearny boy. A little yearny. And if you use, you can get it on any major retailer's website. But if you'd like a signed copy, you go to my website, aepervis.com and use code Erin Warner to get 10% off. Because it wouldn't be me if I didn't make something about Erin Warner. My man. Body Snatch. Body Snatch. That's my boy.

[01:02:47] All right. And that was The Incoherent Fan Girl. Thanks for listening. We love you. Bye. Bye. We are sponsored by our friends at Here Comes the Nerd. Pins, stickers, magnets, and more. Here Comes the Nerd has happy art for all fandom-loving hearts. New customers can use coupon code FANGIRL during checkout for 20% off their first order at herecomesthenerd.com. Coupon applies to ready-to-ship items only.